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19 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Absolutely, where is the consistency? Our budget year in year out (when our seasons tend to end competitively very early due to our constant mediocrity) is not sorted until well after the season ends, so communication between manager and owners is non existent, the manager going to India with a begging bowl weeks into the summer is hardly proactive, and always his interviews prior show he hasnt the foggiest what the budget is, so how can we plan.

There is no rhyme or reason. First signing this summer was Kaminski, one from Europe that was well scouted. The second one was a Boro old boy on a long deal with seemingly no due diligence done in the medical. We sign another European goalkeeper who is nowhere to be seen. Then we do most of the business on the last day, 5 or 6 games in. An aging left back on loan to plug the gap, another Boro old boy on a long deal to sit on the bench, a talented player on loan who seemingly was very much a last minute bonus, and then yet another central midfielder unwanted by his club. And then another few weeks down the line, a player who did very well in his first season here, a Boro old boy, but who is very old yet we for some unknown reason waited so long to sign him back up, even when we already have so many midfielders and who was chronically unfit due to the delay and has rarely featured. 

The lists are clearly hardly watertight either. When we came up, Bauer was clearly our main target at CB. A big, tall, aerielly strong centre back. We didnt get him, so we then signed Rodwell, an injury prone midfielder who Mowbray planned to move there. Hardly similar! You also look up front, he signed Gallagher and publically admitted an interest in Joao, so he is just going for familiar faces. Dack, Gladwin and Brereton all signed based on "playing well" against his teams in the past.

Yep. There is no consistency or anything really to suggest there is a "plan". I agree with everything you say. Then you add in signing players who don't fit how we play, or players for positions they don't play their best in. I mean this is the reality. Our recruitment is a mess. 

I was thinking about another thing as well. My mate supports villa. You look at them getting Terry in. Look at our coaching set up. It's bargain basement stuff, with no ambition. 

To be fair he got us out of League 1, but if he hadn't lucked out with Dack and AA, he would be gone and we could still be there. Anyway, a lot of that good will is gone for me. He is incapable of admitting fault. To me in my job, I find that an awful, awful trait. The best can easily accept blame. If he goes at the end of the season, I will give him the credit he deserves, if he stays though.....

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Fast forwards 12 months.... 'We lost the quality of Holtby and the goals of Armstrong last summer along with the regular right back and the experience of Johnson.  It's a sad day for the club but

The one and only summer transfer that needs to be made is Tony Mowbray and Mark Venus up the road. 

So where's it going wrong at Ewood then, the culture and feel or the data ? How much of those do you need to see people like Holtby and Ayala are unlikely to feature often enough.  Or that Evans

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1 hour ago, JoeH said:

Perhaps others would see a way of tracking manager performance - sheer win % can be easily swayed by the clubs level in the league they're in and the player quality they have.

Maybe win percentage relative to win percentage that club had in the year before a manager took over. Like a win percentage improvement stat. Although I'd say points are more important than wins.

Difficult with promoted sides, but for those you could take an aggregate of the three promoted teams from the season before (or a 5, 10 year aggregate if you liked) and create an 'expected points' metric to compare it to, sort of in the vein of xg. Then see how the manager performs for points compared to that. Depending how you view these things you could also base it on teams who have finished 1st, 2nd or won the playoffs, to tailor it more, but I think I saw a stat years ago that the team winning the playoffs actually tend to do better than the team finishing 2nd, so that might indicate it isn't too useful.

It might be possible to add in other factors too, like net transfer spend relative to performance, or altering the expected points metric, with a bit of tinkering. Tricky though, especially since so many fees are undisclosed which probably makes it a non starter. Maybe player number turnover though, which could indicate how a manager deals with a rebuild.

On the whole I agree managers are harder to run data on, but there are things that can be done. Comparing league finish to that predicted by the bookies could be another, although that has an element of subjectivity.

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7 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Considering how tough he looked as a defender is odd but Mowbray the manager has balls the size of raisins.

He really isn't very good at backing himself with an aggressive attacking team or signings outside of his black book.

All about the comfort zone for our Tony.

I think and I'm not making excuses, cos it isn't one, but did/does he find defending so straight forward that he can't teach it or identify issues tactically? I mean ultimately it is simple, but the way he sets us up, makes it difficult for even good defenders.

I mean look at his career in management. Let's call a spade a spade here. He has had ongoing issues. Take that WBA promotion out and it's pretty shit. Yet he talks about how he likes his team's to play, as if it's a proven method of gaining success. It isn't. 

I blame the media for being very inept when it comes to questioning him. At other clubs, managers would feel the pressure via questioning from journalists. Now, granted we aren't on TV often, but when we are it's like they have watched the first 10 games of the season and just discarded what has come since.

As for the LT, well I don't understand why they let him off with it. Would it really matter he refused to talk to them? I'm sure many would be impressed my them for putting that pressure on. Grow some balls. 

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Stats / data on managers sounds like a needless distraction to me. You know if a manager is doing well by watching performances and results. Stats /data would probably make Mowbray look like less of a disaster, hence why he constantly trots this stuff out. 

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16 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think and I'm not making excuses, cos it isn't one, but did/does he find defending so straight forward that he can't teach it or identify issues tactically? I mean ultimately it is simple, but the way he sets us up, makes it difficult for even good defenders.

I mean look at his career in management. Let's call a spade a spade here. He has had ongoing issues. Take that WBA promotion out and it's pretty shit. Yet he talks about how he likes his team's to play, as if it's a proven method of gaining success. It isn't. 

I blame the media for being very inept when it comes to questioning him. At other clubs, managers would feel the pressure via questioning from journalists. Now, granted we aren't on TV often, but when we are it's like they have watched the first 10 games of the season and just discarded what has come since.

As for the LT, well I don't understand why they let him off with it. Would it really matter he refused to talk to them? I'm sure many would be impressed my them for putting that pressure on. Grow some balls. 

I absolutely agree with this.

Only problem you’ve got from their point of view is that they’ll be looking to protect their relationship with the club, so they won’t want to rock the boat.

(Just to be clear, I think the fact that is the case is absolutely pathetic too).

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23 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Yep. There is no consistency or anything really to suggest there is a "plan". I agree with everything you say. Then you add in signing players who don't fit how we play, or players for positions they don't play their best in. I mean this is the reality. Our recruitment is a mess. 

I was thinking about another thing as well. My mate supports villa. You look at them getting Terry in. Look at our coaching set up. It's bargain basement stuff, with no ambition. 

To be fair he got us out of League 1, but if he hadn't lucked out with Dack and AA, he would be gone and we could still be there. Anyway, a lot of that good will is gone for me. He is incapable of admitting fault. To me in my job, I find that an awful, awful trait. The best can easily accept blame. If he goes at the end of the season, I will give him the credit he deserves, if he stays though.....

To be fair, he deserves credit for signing Armstrong and Dack although his overall transfer record is poor. Definitely no structure to it, and possibly not a good sign that a key member of our recruitment team (not that he will be missed assuming he plays a big part in our shoddy recruitment) going to a League 1 club either.

I also dont really blame him for what he says, its self preservation, I wouldnt leave voluntarily if I was him and for me it is down to the owners to sack him. Sadly, they are absent, negligent stains on our football club.

Regarding coaching staff, I am not one who likes to see names appointed for the sake of their name (Terry as an individual though may well have been a big help at Villa who have done well) nor for sentimental reasons as many suggest. If Venus for example is Mowbrays chosen assistant, thats down to him.

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1 minute ago, K-Hod said:

I absolutely agree with this.

Only problem you’ve got from their point of view is that they’ll be looking to protect their relationship with the club, so they won’t want to rock the boat.

(Just to be clear, I think the fact that is the case is absolutely pathetic too).

Someone there is making the call. You would wonder who is involved in the conversations. How high does it go

Surely, at a certain point, the club need them just as much as they need the club? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more ,I won't say aggressive, but thorough , questioning? I know it's a local paper, but it's almost bordering on dishonest how they are reporting on things? It's head in the sand anyway, no doubt about that. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think and I'm not making excuses, cos it isn't one, but did/does he find defending so straight forward that he can't teach it or identify issues tactically? I mean ultimately it is simple, but the way he sets us up, makes it difficult for even good defenders.

I mean look at his career in management. Let's call a spade a spade here. He has had ongoing issues. Take that WBA promotion out and it's pretty shit. Yet he talks about how he likes his team's to play, as if it's a proven method of gaining success. It isn't. 

I blame the media for being very inept when it comes to questioning him. At other clubs, managers would feel the pressure via questioning from journalists. Now, granted we aren't on TV often, but when we are it's like they have watched the first 10 games of the season and just discarded what has come since.

As for the LT, well I don't understand why they let him off with it. Would it really matter he refused to talk to them? I'm sure many would be impressed my them for putting that pressure on. Grow some balls. 

I think it all comes down to him over complicating again and like you say trying to play up to this 'footballing' stereotype.  He doesn't like bread and butter center defenders like himself he wants ball players instead.

Difficult to get at this level but Tosin, Harwood- Bells and even Ayala fall into this category.  The best defender he has is a more rugged one in Lenihen and he was inherited, that's the types we need though.

Probably why he's struggled defensively everywhere he's been managing. I think teams can still play decent enough football without having to have cultured center backs.

Was watching that Jack Charlton documentary the other night and he was more to the point. Defenders defend, two touches at most then away and it doesn't always have to be long ball.  You shouldn't need to be Frank Rijkaard to pass the ball to a team mate at championship level.

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9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

To be fair, he deserves credit for signing Armstrong and Dack although his overall transfer record is poor. Definitely no structure to it, and possibly not a good sign that a key member of our recruitment team (not that he will be missed assuming he plays a big part in our shoddy recruitment) going to a League 1 club either.

I also dont really blame him for what he says, its self preservation, I wouldnt leave voluntarily if I was him and for me it is down to the owners to sack him. Sadly, they are absent, negligent stains on our football club.

Regarding coaching staff, I am not one who likes to see names appointed for the sake of their name (Terry as an individual though may well have been a big help at Villa who have done well) nor for sentimental reasons as many suggest. If Venus for example is Mowbrays chosen assistant, thats down to him.

I would wonder what Sunderland saw in him, with our transfer record. The issue is this recruitment could drag on for who knows how long. Honestly, it's amateur from what I can see. They advertise the roles on LinkedIn. Surely they should be head hunting targeted people? It amazes me how reactive they are. I have worked in more proactive organisations. 

No, you can't blame him. He annoys me, but why would he miss out on all that money? Would make no sense. Most offer the fudgey "mutual" decision stuff. It just shows how detached they are. 

I don't necessarily mean applying someone for sentimental value, more that he is a proven winner. Ya,it's hard to know what part he plays, but you would imagine he would motivate and inspire players more than some on our bench. It's not the bee all and end all though ,I agree.  It's just the coaching set up at rovers doesn't strike me as going for the hungriest and best. Again, all speculation. 

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11 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I think it all comes down to him over complicating again and like you say trying to play up to this 'footballing' stereotype.  He doesn't like bread and butter center defenders like himself he wants ball players instead.

Difficult to get at this level but Tosin, Harwood- Bells and even Ayala fall into this category.  The best defender he has is a more rugged one in Lenihen and he was inherited, that's the types we need though.

Probably why he's struggled defensively everywhere he's been managing. I think teams can still play decent enough football without having to have cultured center backs.

Was watching that Jack Charlton documentary the other night and he was more to the point. Defenders defend, two touches at most then away and it doesn't always have to be long ball.  You shouldn't need to be Frank Rijkaard to pass the ball to a team mate at championship level.

Must be something in him that wants to show he's a purist, even though he was a bread and butter centre half. Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with being

Very good documentary. Sad at times, but beautiful. That was the golden age of Irish football really. The long ball game, put em under pressure. They could play other ways too, but that was effective at the time.

Most players were at the top English clubs then. Paul McGrath, David O'Leary, Mick McCarthy and Kevin Moran were the centre halves at the time. McGrath and O'Leary could play, but the other 2 were the no nonsense guys. Jack's a legend. I read something in a book, I think Inverting the pyramid, about how he brought his style from Boro. The long ball percentage game. You get it long, try and win the first ball, but absolutely must win the second breaking ball. It really suited the players Ireland had at the time. He kept it simple. 

 

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I absolutely agree that the transfer plan is still inconsistent. You can have a European Scouting focus, use data and compile lists all you want, but when you go and give a 3-year deal to another ex-Boro player, the facade is somewhat broken. I would like to see us head down a much more rigid approach. Let's REALLY try the European route, or the academy route, or the data route - we've been half trying these different things but never really throwing our weight into anything of them completely.

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3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Must be something in him that wants to show he's a purist, even though he was a bread and butter centre half. Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with being

Very good documentary. Sad at times, but beautiful. That was the golden age of Irish football really. The long ball game, put em under pressure. They could play other ways too, but that was effective at the time.

Most players were at the top English clubs then. Paul McGrath, David O'Leary, Mick McCarthy and Kevin Moran were the centre halves at the time. McGrath and O'Leary could play, but the other 2 were the no nonsense guys. Jack's a legend. I read something in a book, I think Inverting the pyramid, about how he brought his style from Boro. The long ball percentage game. You get it long, try and win the first ball, but absolutely must win the second breaking ball. It really suited the players Ireland had at the time. He kept it simple. 

 

McGrath and O'Leary were hard as nails but both could play a bit as well. Perfect defenders for that era.

McGrath would've been a worldie had he not had such bad knees and bad habits.

Mad really how a small island turned out so many top international center halves for a period.

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4 hours ago, JoeH said:

I wasn't referencing my role at EA Sports, more my certifications in Football Scouting and my knowledge of Data Analysis. Your assumptions are very wide of the mark.

For your reference I have my FA Talent ID badges, my PFSA Level 2 and Level 3 Advance Reporting, I have undertaken a lot of private work in this sector. I have completed many a course in data analysis and data analysis for football & I have been using industry standard platforms like Wyscout for well over a year.

My claims about how our footballs clubs recruitment works come from connections and knowledge of the industry, not wild claims based on a side job for EA Sports that only you have decided to bring up...

Yet none of that means a 20 year old knows the inner workings of our club as u keep insisting you do.

Hence, from the outside, you come across as very condescending.

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5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Joe may claim knowledge on data etc and how it is used, but his opinion is no more valid than anyone elses, nor is is it factual. He does not know the exact inner workings at Rovers, or indeed if we have a list of numerous targets and are well organised behind the scenes, and of course even more importantly, if our targets are any good. Nothing that has happened in the past suggests that the recruitment side of our club is efficient, well oiled, consistent or capable of identifying good players. It seems a haphazard mis match of a bit of everything.

He has already said he knows thats the way Rovers work as recruitment department. 

Why is everything mis match abit? Thats Mowbray fault and his inability not to trust his recruitment team. probably why Stuart Harvey left for Sunderland

4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Some of the stuff you mention, that we have lists for example of targets, Mowbray has publically mentioned these in the past so that is a safe assumption to make, although going back to my point, I would not expect that at this stage, considering the way our club lacks proactivity at every level, that numerous targets are ready to go as I mention in my opening paragraph. The assumption can never be made that our club is run in any way efficiency, it clearly is not, the manager has no clue on his future or indeed on his budget, and wont anytime soon with our absent owners.

 

But Rovers recruitment department have already complied these lists as Joe has said and targets for Mowbray to chose who he wants as his 1st target. Thats the way we run these things. Thats my opinion and you can keep arguing about it but I dont know why you are when you have nothing to back it up with. 

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

All we can go off are recent signings and let's be honest, they haven't been good, have they? We have signed more players from Boro than Europe under Mowbray, way more. So something isn't working. It's either not being done properly,or the manager is rejecting good proposals.  

Which do you think it is? 

It appears to me that our recruitment is light years behind other clubs in the division. Night and day. 

I think its Mowbray rejecting the proposals from the recruitment team in favour of players he work with before or played well against him. 

This is why I starting to become in favour of Sporting Director/head coach structure where the head coach isn't in charge of transfers but the Sporting Director makes the decisions on who we sign. its a system that has worked very well for Norwich, Brentford, Barnsley. 

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1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Absolutely, where is the consistency? Our budget year in year out (when our seasons tend to end competitively very early due to our constant mediocrity) is not sorted until well after the season ends, so communication between manager and owners is non existent, the manager going to India with a begging bowl weeks into the summer is hardly proactive, and always his interviews prior show he hasnt the foggiest what the budget is, so how can we plan.

There is no rhyme or reason. First signing this summer was Kaminski, one from Europe that was well scouted. The second one was a Boro old boy on a long deal with seemingly no due diligence done in the medical. We sign another European goalkeeper who is nowhere to be seen. Then we do most of the business on the last day, 5 or 6 games in. An aging left back on loan to plug the gap, another Boro old boy on a long deal to sit on the bench, a talented player on loan who seemingly was very much a last minute bonus, and then yet another central midfielder unwanted by his club. And then another few weeks down the line, a player who did very well in his first season here, a Boro old boy, but who is very old yet we for some unknown reason waited so long to sign him back up, even when we already have so many midfielders and who was chronically unfit due to the delay and has rarely featured. 

The lists are clearly hardly watertight either. When we came up, Bauer was clearly our main target at CB. A big, tall, aerielly strong centre back. We didnt get him, so we then signed Rodwell, an injury prone midfielder who Mowbray planned to move there. Hardly similar! You also look up front, he signed Gallagher and publically admitted an interest in Joao, so he is just going for familiar faces. Dack, Gladwin and Brereton all signed based on "playing well" against his teams in the past.

You can keep blaming the owners all you want but they keep providing the funds for transfers/wages and investment in the recruitment department to be more data focus and Scouting overseas. 

You last paragraph sums up our transfer policy perfect. Mowbray hasn't been using our recruitment department and the structures in place properly cos he keep going back to old players who played for or against him or Old Boro players. 

The transfer policy under Mowbray in the 3 seasons has been a mess. He wanted Gallagher 12 months we signed but still sign him even tho we had Brereton. Why? 

Would you honestly think our recruitment department recommend we sign Ayala, Downing, Pears, Douglas, Trybull, Gallagher, etc? I dont think so. Why didn't we sign more players from Europe last season or before?

39 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 possibly not a good sign that a key member of our recruitment team (not that he will be missed assuming he plays a big part in our shoddy recruitment) going to a League 1 club either.

 

Did you honestly think Stuart Harvey has recommend we sign the players mention above? 

Why did Sunderland head hunted and why did he accept the offer? greater say and involvement in transfer policy? more money and working closely with their Sporting Director Speakman there? 

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5 hours ago, islander200 said:

Why would you want Adkins?

Do you want the club to have ambition or just keep appointing has beens?

Adkins has 4 promotions on his CV. 2 with Scunthorpe United and 2 with Southampton. 

I want the club to a manager/head coach that can take us to the PL. Thats could be Hughes or Wilder or Neil or Ainsworth or some Foreign head coach or some young and up coming manager like Davidson. I dont know. Just hope we make the right appointment When Mowbray leaves

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@chaddyrovers 

Mowbrays recruitment has been poor and ive never once defended that, there are no excuses for it. Thanks for permission to criticise the owners which I will also continue to do so considering their backward processes, their repeated lack of proactivity, the lack of communication that leaves the manager unaware of his budget until well into the close season. For you, its just one of those things that we cant do anything about, surely that applies for Mowbray too, but thats your stance and thats up to you.

Joe has never claimed to know the inner workings of our recruitment, his theories and assumptions are generalised and he never once claimed to know exactly what is going on in our club. His opinion is as valid as both of ours, not factual proof that you are right.

If it suits your narrative to suddenly think that Mowbray is the sole reason for the clubs continued ineffiencies then fair enough. Again, if you think that our recruitment process is so well organised and that it is merely Mowbray disobeying that has caused the poor recruitment, when a mere matter of months ago it was because he came up with the idea of a new scouting network that you wanted him to stay, its a laughable 180 degree turn on your opinion but fair enough. Please stop implying that I am in any way defending Mowbray, I want him sacked and ive wanted him sacked for far longer than you.

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31 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

He has already said he knows thats the way Rovers work as recruitment department. 

Why is everything mis match abit? Thats Mowbray fault and his inability not to trust his recruitment team. probably why Stuart Harvey left for Sunderland

But Rovers recruitment department have already complied these lists as Joe has said and targets for Mowbray to chose who he wants as his 1st target. Thats the way we run these things. Thats my opinion and you can keep arguing about it but I dont know why you are when you have nothing to back it up with. 

I think its Mowbray rejecting the proposals from the recruitment team in favour of players he work with before or played well against him. 

This is why I starting to become in favour of Sporting Director/head coach structure where the head coach isn't in charge of transfers but the Sporting Director makes the decisions on who we sign. its a system that has worked very well for Norwich, Brentford, Barnsley. 

We are a very long way from that now

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2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Stats / data on managers sounds like a needless distraction to me. You know if a manager is doing well by watching performances and results. Stats /data would probably make Mowbray look like less of a disaster, hence why he constantly trots this stuff out. 

And you know if a player is doing well by watching them. Yet data on players has become a very prominent tool. In most lines of work, a management hire will usually have to justify themselves at least partially in numbers.

Truth is almost anything in existence can be explained in numbers. It's just a case of establishing how.

Stats like possession can be used to make Mowbray look good - but only if you ignore all the other stats that make him look bad, like this terrible run we are on, an almost inevitable decline in league position and points this year, and the stats I posted in the other thread that show his strategy of controlling possession backfires. Empirically.

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55 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Adkins has 4 promotions on his CV. 2 with Scunthorpe United and 2 with Southampton. 

I want the club to a manager/head coach that can take us to the PL. Thats could be Hughes or Wilder or Neil or Ainsworth or some Foreign head coach or some young and up coming manager like Davidson. I dont know. Just hope we make the right appointment When Mowbray leaves

In fairness his last promotion was in 2011 was it?Ten years ago and he has had to take a job in league one to get back into the game.

We need to go for someone on the up or someone who has recent success not someone because they have a promotion on their CV X amount of years ago.

Would love Wilder myself.Id be in favour of a sporting director but only if someone credible not a Shebby Singh or Paul Senior 

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4 hours ago, JoeH said:

Sadly I'd say data on managers is lacking quite far behind at the moment. It's difficult because I'd say most things you need in a manager are behind closed doors. It's their ability to inspire, to work man to man with footballers on a day to day basis. You can't really track or benchmark those skills. With management I think it's a bit more cut and dry, you have it or you don't. 

That's just the way I see it though. Perhaps others would see a way of tracking manager performance - sheer win % can be easily swayed by the clubs level in the league they're in and the player quality they have.

That also goes for players though, they may fit the football criteria but may not want to say, move North/South, drop down a division, have a grievance with certain existing players, not be happy with the wages, etc etc.

Hell, they may even like wearing ripped jeans, the data only scouting system is flawed, especially as it depends on who is making the decisions based on the data.

 

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Signing players from data stats might be a safety net against landing yourself with lazy gits. Or players who can't pass 3 yards with either foot, it doesn't though tell you if they'll gel with your others to make a fluid effective team.

That's where the scouts eyes and the managers nous comes in and that'll never change. 

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1 hour ago, DeeCee said:

Hell, they may even like wearing ripped jeans, the data only scouting system is flawed, especially as it depends on who is making the decisions based on the data.

Has there been a suggestion of a data only scouting system?

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