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3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

My main point was that performances in the kids league is not necessarily indicative of a player having a successful career in the first team. For every Travis, there is a dozen others who dont make the transition. At the moment, the jury is out on the pair, but both have recently put in their best performances in a Rovers shirt where it matters in the first team. (Buckley at Charlton and Rankin Costello last night) We are weak in wide areas so I would like to see Rankin Costello there at some point.

Yes of course every player wont make it but some players stand out like Travis or Rankin Costello have at that level. Then you got someone like Hilton who impressed every time I watched him at under 23's and will possibly get his chance before the season out. 

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I would agree that Rankin Costello had his best game yesterday, although was obviously somewhat handicapped, not necessarily at full back where he is not natural but wasnt really ever left one on one, but on his weak side, which as a full back expected to overlap, can be a big problem. Was quite underwhelmed in his 2 performances in attacking positions and felt that he looked our weakest link v Bristol City. I saw a bit more attacking intent when he went on a dribble at the start of last night.

We have to disagree with his performance vs Bristol City. He isn't a left back but he just wants to play and I wouldn't be surprise if we used him more at right back next season

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

And no I havent seen Wharton playing, I am just saying that if any of the young defenders is ready to compete around the first team, surely its the one who has played 80+ games and has had individual plaudits and team success, albeit at a lower standard but no doubt against physical, senior pros, rather than Grayson who was mentioned but who in his sole senior game v a League 2 side was well out of his depth. We still need to sign at least one centre back, but maybe Wharton can come back and be 3rd or 4th choice.

Hasn't Grayson spent half a season with Grimsby?

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I also am not convinced that there will be much of a market for Ryan Nyambe, and if there is, we are in a weak position in terms of a fee. You mentioned Palace, Hodgson loves experience and organisation and I am not sure he gets a game there. He isnt close to being a Premier League player at the moment and outside the club I am unsure if he is even a stand out Championship right back. He needs to work on his attacking game, not much going on when he approaches the final third. Hopefully he can do that in a Rovers shirt as hes one of our better players.

not sure Hodgson has overall say who they buy with Freedman there as Director of Football. I remember saying that it was Freedman's idea to sign Tosun from Everton on loan. Hodgson didn't argue with him. With Hodgson's experience in Europe he is used to be the head coach. 

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8 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I wasn't suggesting he would aggravate the fans in the stadium. Not my intention at all. More that players against former sides (where they're usually booed by opposition fans - obviously not on this occasion) tend to score against those teams. I was proven correct there.

 

5 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I agree.. I was responding to the point made by someone who claimed our academy was underperforming/overhyped which I think is absurd. The claim that we've nothing decent coming out of the Under 18's or the 23's is quite clearly proven to be false by the numerous former youth team players in our first team, and some of the quality we have at 18's and 23's level. It's not a huge personal opinion based on my viewing.

I don't see how these factual points are a sign of my lack of sight for the context of their play at youth level at all. I know what that league is like, I know that Callum Hudson-Odoi was tosh at Leyland and scored his first England senior goal just 6-months later. Players perform and underperform at that level and at that age consistently very inconsistently.

I'm not claiming that we have the most amazing academy in the world, but I think the original claim (the one I was responding to) is absurd and outside of personal opinion, there's many factually unavoidable variants proving so.

He scored because he anticipated Lenihans header would not go in and was in the right place. I dont think with the supporter element removed that where the goal was anything more than coincedental.

I agree though that the graduates (Lenihan, Nyambe and Travis) and a recent sale (Raya) justify that the academy is doing its job and its a good return.

At the moment there is only hope with Buckley, Rankin Costello etc rather than anything substantial or tangible. At the moment neither has proven themselves to be first team regulars so their performance at under age levels just add hope. Of course we can never lose track of the fact that the only thing that proves that an academy is working is not good results for them or good performances, it is senior graduation. Our recent history as you say is good.

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4 hours ago, WacoRover said:

Youth are characterized by extremes, both good & bad. I take Rankin-Costello, I think he will be a solid player for us.

 I asked the same thing about Wharton, he’s helped 3 teams to promotion. Hard worker, & surely, a winning attitude. 

One player will be 23 in a matter of days, the other is 20. Judge Wharton by his senior apps - he has been decent, but not remarkable, at League Two level consistently. Joe Rankin-Costello, at a two/three year younger age group, can only be judged by HIS own first team appearances, which have come in the Championship where I believe he's performed admirably.

I don't see why it has to be so "one equals this then the other must too". We've had a handful of managers, including of course also the handful of managers Wharton has played for on loan, and Wharton is yet to be given a chance in the Championship/spoken of as a huge prospect for the future - whatever your view on Tony Mowbray, at the end of the day if Scott Wharton was a decent Championship footballer (or going to be), he'd have had his break by now.

Joe Rankin-Costello hasn't gone out on loan, Buckley hasn't, Travis and Nyambe didn't. Infact almost all of the decent youth prospects we've had who've succeeded didn't go out on loan. If you're good enough you're old enough they say.  Players like Wharton, who leave on loan consistently, very rarely make it back into the first team picture at this level. The players who have the ability from day one are the players who make it, and they usually don't leave on loan. Travis had two games to prove himself, BANG, best midfielder at the club. Wharton's played games for us as early as 2016... there's a huge difference.

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Just now, roversfan99 said:

He scored because he anticipated Lenihans header would not go in and was in the right place. I dont think with the supporter element removed that where the goal was anything more than coincedental.

 

99.99% correct. But it's just somehow true that players score against teams like that, former clubs, former rivals. That's football, outside of the context of the goal.

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Just now, roversfan99 said:

At the moment there is only hope with Buckley, Rankin Costello etc rather than anything substantial or tangible. At the moment neither has proven themselves to be first team regulars so their performance at under age levels just add hope

I agree. Although it's my personal opinion that JRC is lightyears ahead of John Buckley in terms of first-team readiness. Much more versatile, usable, seems to have an older head on his shoulders. I think JRC is performing as well as Lewis Travis performed when he had to step up in early 2019. But now we are getting into personal opinion, and with this particular discussion I think the facts speak for themselves, and my own viewpoints are necessary colour to add to the point - it's already substantial enough.

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3 hours ago, arbitro said:

How can it be a three up front when you say Graham was deeper. I just can't get my head around how you fit a false nine into a system. If it's as you say and Graham was a false nine (I disagree) then it should have been 4-3-1-2 to accommodate Graham being deeper. That's the nonsense of over complicating things for me.

cos thats what a false 9 does. Like Firmano does for Liverpool or like City do with Silva or Sterling at times, Firmano is playing tonight game currently the false 9 role. 

Samuel and Armstrong starting positions were start wide. 

 

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Just now, JoeH said:

I agree. Although it's my personal opinion that JRC is lightyears ahead of John Buckley in terms of first-team readiness. Much more versatile, usable, seems to have an older head on his shoulders. I think JRC is performing as well as Lewis Travis performed when he had to step up in early 2019. But now we are getting into personal opinion, and with this particular discussion I think the facts speak for themselves, and my own viewpoints are necessary colour to add to the point - it's already substantial enough.

The biggest advantage JRC has is his physicality. Buckley is very weak. 

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1 minute ago, JoeH said:

One player will be 23 in a matter of days, the other is 20. Judge Wharton by his senior apps - he has been decent, but not remarkable, at League Two level consistently. Joe Rankin-Costello, at a two/three year younger age group, can only be judged by HIS own first team appearances, which have come in the Championship where I believe he's performed admirably.

I don't see why it has to be so "one equals this then the other must too". We've had a handful of managers, including of course also the handful of managers Wharton has played for on loan, and Wharton is yet to be given a chance in the Championship/spoken of as a huge prospect for the future - whatever your view on Tony Mowbray, at the end of the day if Scott Wharton was a decent Championship footballer (or going to be), he'd have had his break by now.

Joe Rankin-Costello hasn't gone out on loan, Buckley hasn't, Travis and Nyambe didn't. Infact almost all of the decent youth prospects we've had who've succeeded didn't go out on loan. If you're good enough you're old enough they say.  Players like Wharton, who leave on loan consistently, very rarely make it back into the first team picture at this level. The players who have the ability from day one are the players who make it, and they usually don't leave on loan. Travis had two games to prove himself, BANG, best midfielder at the club. Wharton's played games for us as early as 2016... there's a huge difference.

You seem quite dismissive of players who are still young but get to 22/23 or those who go out on loan or who have had senior experience such as Davenport and Chapman in the past. Unsure if maybe its an element of bias towards those youve spent time watching when you go and watch the reserves. Players take different paths, Lenihan had a loan spell and the whole purpose is to develop them more than U23 football ever could.

I cant say I have seen Wharton play for Northampton, maybe you have? But 3 promotions seems a little more than decent and lets not forget he is still very young and growing/bulking up physically. Im not saying that he should come back to us but hes in by far the best position out of the young defenders to come in when money is tight and add some potential cover. Whether hes good enough I have no idea but it seems remiss to write him off as if hes ready for the scrapheap because hes soon turning 23 (years off his peak) and because hes had some very successful loans.

Absolutely no chance whatsoever that Rankin Costello has performed as well as Travis breaking in either. If you think back Travis was man of the match on his home debut and he stood out in his first few games. On Rankin Costello's first team starts our opinions differ, I would say his first 3 starts were ineffective, ineffective shaky and assured yesterday, but I cant see how anyone could imply that he stood out like Travis did.

 

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

cos thats what a false 9 does. Like Firmano does for Liverpool or like City do with Silva or Sterling at times, Firmano is playing tonight game currently the false 9 role. 

Samuel and Armstrong starting positions were start wide. 

 

Firstly there is a world of difference between those players you mentioned and the strikers we have both in terms of quality and type of player. We have no one who matches either criteria even accounting for us being in a lower division. 

Secondly I am sure you were adamant Gally hasn't been played wide right. He clearly has been both before and after the break and it seems you acknowledge that here. 

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2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

cos thats what a false 9 does. Like Firmano does for Liverpool or like City do with Silva or Sterling at times, Firmano is playing tonight game currently the false 9 role. 

Samuel and Armstrong starting positions were start wide. 

 

Let's sign Firmano then and give the false number nine plan a real go.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

You seem quite dismissive of players who are still young but get to 22/23 or those who go out on loan or who have had senior experience such as Davenport and Chapman in the past. Unsure if maybe its an element of bias towards those youve spent time watching when you go and watch the reserves. Players take different paths, Lenihan had a loan spell and the whole purpose is to develop them more than U23 football ever could.

I cant say I have seen Wharton play for Northampton, maybe you have? But 3 promotions seems a little more than decent and lets not forget he is still very young and growing/bulking up physically. Im not saying that he should come back to us but hes in by far the best position out of the young defenders to come in when money is tight and add some potential cover. Whether hes good enough I have no idea but it seems remiss to write him off as if hes ready for the scrapheap because hes soon turning 23 (years off his peak) and because hes had some very successful loans.

Absolutely no chance whatsoever that Rankin Costello has performed as well as Travis breaking in either. If you think back Travis was man of the match on his home debut and he stood out in his first few games. On Rankin Costello's first team starts our opinions differ, I would say his first 3 starts were ineffective, ineffective shaky and assured yesterday, but I cant see how anyone could imply that he stood out like Travis did.

 

Bear in mind that centre halves can mature later than most other outfield players.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Tabula Rasa said:

Armstrong will take the plaudits but Travis created the goal - without even touching the ball.

Closed down and pressured the man to make a mistake.

We are all in thrall to Arma but for me that was Travis's goal - to quote, 'without Travis, Arma is nothing...'

Respectfully disagree. Armstrong put in a 10-15 yard anticipatory run before the bloke had even decided where he was going to pass it. A classic example of “run to where the ball is going to be, not to where it is.”

Also surprised so many think Graham played his normal game, which is farthest man forward borderline fouling the CH to lay off a long high ball. Particularly in the first half, he was coming short into the gap between midfield and defence, getting ball to feet, turning and passing. And very effective it was too, I thought.

Edited by Exiled in Toronto

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Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Respectfully disagree. Armstrong our in a 10-15 yard anticipatory run before the bloke had even decided where he was going to pass it. A classic example of “run to where the ball is going to be, not to where it is.”

Did the Cardiff player get an " assist " for the pass ? He should have, best pass of the night.

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Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Did the Cardiff player get an " assist " for the pass ? He should have, best pass of the night.

He must not have seen him, he clearly had no idea Armstrong was legging it into the space.

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5 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Fair Point.  I agree a defence is more important,  but DS has mitigation with terrible injury.  The other two are fit for nothimg.  Mowbrays failings are haunting us. I can only hope a new manager gets a tune out of BB /SG

I seem to remember DS's contribution was..well..poor before he ever got injured. 3 duds, but one of them is out of contract!

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5 hours ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

On Nyambe's crossing. He has actually vastly improved in this area in the last 6-12 months. 

The issue is he rarely actually crosses the ball. Could be many reasons for that though, I think if he was a left back with Gallagher or Samuel on the other side he would probably put the ball in more often. 

I remember last year thinking he was literally the worst crosser of the ball i'd even seen at ewood, he could barely get the ball off the ground and when he did his technique was shocking. When he does cross it now it's to a much higher standard.

That early miss of his was pathetic though. Absolute sitter.

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Re: Wharton, and it’s the last I will say about him... Guys can only get better with experience. He’s been good enough at the lower leagues, and he can play the position. Even Kane & Vardy played on loanout at places like Leyton Orient & Fleetwood. Ian Rush started at Chester City. 

Not saying Wharton is their equal; just saying that’s how players improve, by getting playing time. Wharton is still just 22, with 80 games under his belt. He probably will not ever be a star at a high level; At least he’s not wasting his time on the bench. 

He has two appearances in a Rovers shirt. Give him a runout and see what happens. He’s definitely more valuable to the future of Rovers football than Bennett. 

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5 minutes ago, WacoRover said:

Re: Wharton, and it’s the last I will say about him... Guys can only get better with experience. He’s been good enough at the lower leagues, and he can play the position. Even Kane & Vardy played on loanout at places like Leyton Orient & Fleetwood. Ian Rush started at Chester City. 

Not saying Wharton is their equal; just saying that’s how players improve, by getting playing time. Wharton is still just 22, with 80 games under his belt. He probably will not ever be a star at a high level; At least he’s not wasting his time on the bench. 

He has two appearances in a Rovers shirt. Give him a runout and see what happens. He’s definitely more valuable to the future of Rovers football than Bennett. 

I think Mowbray would love to be able to play 3 at the back, he's never had 3 good eniugh centre halves. Perhaps slotting SW in with DL and TA would be the way, push the full backs Nyambe and Cunningham on wide

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5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Did the Cardiff player get an " assist " for the pass ? He should have, best pass of the night.

He deserves an assist. It was a beaut, begging to be smacked.

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6 hours ago, WacoRover said:

Re: Wharton, and it’s the last I will say about him... Guys can only get better with experience. He’s been good enough at the lower leagues, and he can play the position. Even Kane & Vardy played on loanout at places like Leyton Orient & Fleetwood. Ian Rush started at Chester City. 

Not saying Wharton is their equal; just saying that’s how players improve, by getting playing time. Wharton is still just 22, with 80 games under his belt. He probably will not ever be a star at a high level; At least he’s not wasting his time on the bench. 

He has two appearances in a Rovers shirt. Give him a runout and see what happens. He’s definitely more valuable to the future of Rovers football than Bennett. 

Beckham at nobbers

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Firstly there is a world of difference between those players you mentioned and the strikers we have both in terms of quality and type of player. We have no one who matches either criteria even accounting for us being in a lower division. 

Secondly I am sure you were adamant Gally hasn't been played wide right. He clearly has been both before and after the break and it seems you acknowledge that here. 

Just explaining how the 4-3-3 with false 9 plays 

When did I say Gallagher hasn't been played wide right? 

Edited by chaddyrovers

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9 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Let's sign Firmano then and give the false number nine plan a real go.

He'd have to bedded into our system first so that may take a while........

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9 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Let's sign Firmano then and give the false number nine plan a real go.

Far too flighty

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Just explaining how the 4-3-3 with false 9 plays 

When did I say Gallagher hasn't been played wide right? 

You are joking right? Or have I totally made up a previous heated conversation about this topic?!

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