That *was* the January Window

[booth]

18 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Yes it is true. This website, under previous management, didn't have a “tone” set out through admin / moderators.

Now it does. When the owner of the site is suggesting that the BBC lancs football pundits, Andy Bayes, the LET and many others, are under some sort of paid agreement to toe the “Venky party line”…. That would’ve never happened before. Conspiratorial nonsense.

Also the very definition of the term Black Hole - what does it mean? A gap - an inexplicable one, in space and time.

@RoverCanada’s post should be required reading prior to anyone posting about funding, because every single penny the club has wasted in 13 years, is in text for all to see.

 I can hold my hand up with everyone else when asked how pissed off I am at the way this set of charlatans run the club. That’s with actual facts, not made up bullshit that literally demeans the real issues involved.

Speaking of facts, on social media if I say Fleck has had two leg breaks and fitness issues, it’s… “burn the heretic!!!!” ”Support the lads!” “Writing him off before he’s kicked a ball!!!”

If being objective is hysterically jumped on, imagine if I stated my opinion that he probably won’t play very much for us.

After 13 years, people on here just don’t believe in fairies and unicorns. I prefer that. Sometimes there’s hysteria in the opposite direction but not like the Stepford Wives on Facebook and Twitter.

Edited February 2 by booth

[Polky]

With Wharton gone, it would look like that Carter and Finneran are the next ones who will leave.

Let’s hope that Finneran signs a pro contract, so we’ll be able to get a similar fee to Ash Phillips when a premier league club comes sniffing.

[Ewood Ace]

12 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Or that's all Stoke want to commit to...

Well Evidently. But given he had 3.5 years left here and we evidently wanted him of the books I suspect we came to an agreement with him for him to get some of his salary (probably a year) from us.

[islander200]

6 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Pleasantly surprised to wake up this morning and see the Fleck signing, good player and a good signing. But a 6 month contract? This whole window has basically been a 6 month sticking plaster and nothing resembling the 'player trading model' that has previously been spoken of.

That was the project when JDT and GB walked through the door

Both GB ,JDT and Waggott have said the project changed in the summer.Numerous times JDT has referenced ,"the project totally changing"

The new project is sell anyone worth anything and replace with academy loans and short term deals 

[JBiz]

4 minutes ago, booth said:

Speaking of facts, on social media if I say Fleck has had two leg breaks and fitness issues, it’s… “burn the heretic!!!!” ”Support the lads!” “Writing him off before he’s kicked a ball!!!”

If being objective is hysterically jumped on, imagine if I stated my opinion that he probably won’t play very much for us.

After 13 years, people on here just don’t believe in fairies and unicorns. I prefer that. Sometimes there’s hysteria in the opposite direction but not like the Stepford Wives on Facebook and Twitter.

“He might not play” is not exactly a comparable message board comment, to something along the lines of “here comes mrs Desai to pocket the cash”

@Silas btw no idea what you mean about creating your own echo. If you think my issues with BRFCS are down to lack of being “agreed with”, then you simply aren’t reading.

[JHRover]

23 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

This transfer window has been a sticking plaster over our structural problems to get us through the next 4-5 months. What they've done is kick the can down the road, in others words put off hard decisions until the summer.

They're hoping the court case resolves itself and the club can perhaps move forward. But there's a possibility that it won't - and we'll still be in this same situation in the run-up to next season.

As it stands, with so many loanees and the squad constantly in flux, there will need to be another rebuilding job in the summer, possibly searching for a new manager too.  And so it continues

 

This is always the case under these owners, Indian court issues or not.

The way they run things it will never change.

We always rely heavily on loans in important positions. This results in a never ending cycle of players coming and going every transfer window.

They have adopted an obsession with using the academy and the 'development' model. By its very nature the whole purpose of it is to develop players for sale. Therefore we need to create spaces in the squad and first XI to accommodate the next 'project' and move people out the other way to justify its continuation.

The contracts - we now have a strict wage ceiling which essentially means that the moment a player reaches a level of establishment in the Championship he isn't going to renew terms with us, because he knows he can get more elsewhere and we aren't going to budge on that. Some might call that prudent, I'd call it stupidity as it means we either see players walking for nothing due to failing to renew their deals or it means they wander off to rivals usually at a lower price than they should just to solve the issue before it reaches a crescendo.

End result is we are constantly going to be waving off our experienced proven players and having to try to replace them.

I don't think anyone really benefits from this, other than agents who can make a good sum shifting their players in and out on a regular basis.

Come the summer our position will be horrific, even if we survive in the Championship. Make no mistake the Wharton money is gone, as is the Kaminski and Phillips money, and they'll already be plotting the next departures.

They'll be hoping that Travis pushes for a permanent move and Ipswich or an other offer cash. The only problem on that front is that if JDT walks the next manager might want him here, and they won't be able to play the 'bust up with the manager' card again straight away.

Then they've Szmodics whose value will be at its peak and he will be getting fed up singlehandedly digging us out of the mire in games and knowing what the owners and execs are up to so suspect he'll be next up, they'll sell that one on his age making it a perfect time to sell.

Pats on the back all around except we are on a one way ticket to League One, fortunately for Waggott and Pasha league status and position doesn't matter and isn't their 'department' so it will be a shrug of the shoulders and more cuts/sales to plug the gap.

Edited February 2 by JHRover

[davulsukur]

The sale of Wharton clearly points to one thing now and thats to reduce the amount of money needed to be put into the club the owners. 

Fairly certain GB is on record as saying this was one of the aims. And now they have an upfront lump sum from Palace and the rest paid over installments over the next few years that plan is already in motion. 

Board/Sulhail/Waggott blocked any transfers costing a fee almost instantly, meaning any incoming money is earmarked for something else, most likely the running costs for the rest of the season.

We won't be spending much in the summer and we'll need a hell of a lot of players coming in.

[booth]

4 minutes ago, JBiz said:

“He might not play” is not exactly a comparable message board comment, to something along the lines of “here comes mrs Desai to pocket the cash”

@Silas

“Here comes Mrs Desai to screw up a well ran club.”

More accurate.

That was an opinion on here 12 years ago, now it’s a fact.

[robfranlong81]

4 minutes ago, JHRover said:

This is always the case under these owners, Indian court issues or not.

The way they run things it will never change.

We always rely heavily on loans in important positions. This results in a never ending cycle of players coming and going every transfer window.

They have adopted an obsession with using the academy and the 'development' model. By its very nature the whole purpose of it is to develop players for sale. Therefore we need to create spaces in the squad and first XI to accommodate the next 'project' and move people out the other way to justify its continuation.

The contracts - we now have a strict wage ceiling which essentially means that the moment a player reaches a level of establishment in the Championship he isn't going to renew terms with us, because he knows he can get more elsewhere and we aren't going to budge on that. Some might call that prudent, I'd call it stupidity as it means we either see players walking for nothing due to failing to renew their deals or it means they wander off to rivals usually at a lower price than they should just to solve the issue before it reaches a crescendo.

End result is we are constantly going to be waving off our experienced proven players and having to try to replace them.

I don't think anyone really benefits from this, other than agents who can make a good sum shifting their players in and out on a regular basis.

Come the summer our position will be horrific, even if we survive in the Championship. Make no mistake the Wharton money is gone, as is the Kaminski and Phillips money, and they'll already be plotting the next departures.

They'll be hoping that Travis pushes for a permanent move and Ipswich or an other offer cash. The only problem on that front is that if JDT walks the next manager might want him here, and they won't be able to play the 'bust up with the manager' card again straight away.

Then they've Szmodics whose value will be at its peak and he will be getting fed up singlehandedly digging us out of the mire in games and knowing what the owners and execs are up to so suspect he'll be next up, they'll sell that one on his age making it a perfect time to sell.

Pats on the back all around except we are on a one way ticket to League One, fortunately for Waggott and Pasha league status and position doesn't matter and isn't their 'department' so it will be a shrug of the shoulders and more cuts/sales to plug the gap.

Great post.  Surely the owners won't want a relegation to League 1 which makes all this penny pinching and austerity even more frustrating.   The club is in complete stagnation - it's been clear that the money generated from the sale of Wharton has or was ear marked for running costs to get the club through to the end of the season. Complete slap in the face or every single fan. 

[RoverCanada]

tldr: a fucking boring essay from that Canadian numbers nerd

While there are some... passionate/angry posters I generally scroll past and maybe don't see much point in debating on some matters, it's not hard to at least understand why they're so pissed off. I admittedly get caught up debating shades of grey, seeing some merit to our alleged model. etc, but the overall failure of Venky's ownership is a black-and-white issue.

For ~5-6 years, Venky's have funded a median-ish Championship wage bill (still less than half of parachute club wages!), which has kept us clear of relegation and on the edge of the playoffs a couple times. With our turnover, before player trading, that basically translates to an annual £20m operating loss. I won't say 'respected'... but that does need to be 'acknowledged'. Having owners that can stomach such losses separates us from Barnsley, Burton, Rotherham, Wigan, Wycombe, etc. (and Luton 🙂) in an ultimately unfair division.

However, this year's cashflow SNAFU highlights our fatally flawed ownership. What good is a rich, 'benevolent' owner if they can barely transfer the cash needed to fund those losses? Whatever the model, suddenly needing to cut our budget by 15% / risking transfers due to sudden cashflow issues ties the hands of any seemingly competent director (GB), alienates talented managers (JDT), and bewilders clubs / agents we deal with. Even if Venky's have done their best to pull financial / legal strings to keep funds flowing this year (23-24 accounts will be interesting reading), it all highlights the risks of having pseudo-oligarch-like owners...

Wharton's sale was sadly inevitable, which needs some acceptance. However, while there are risks to not cashing in with a decent offer on the table (see Dack), it's hard not to link selling now to this year's cashflow issues. Some of that may be bad luck (delayed Raya sell-on), but it's ridiculous if we've made that sale maybe a year early - with him signed to a long-term contract, happy to stay, possibly forgoeing an extra £5m as he develops, and meaning the contribution to our FFP window runs out in 25-26 rather than 26-27+ - because of cashflow issues due to our owner's legal issues.

It's also simply fucking sad that we only got 1.5 years to watch a homegrown prodigal talent.

Now, one way or another, we probably need average net sales of £5m per year if we want to maintain a median wage bill under FFP (as an aside, the sheer scale of the Brentford model needs to be acknowledged: their average player trading profit was £23m between 2016-21, capped by +£44m in their promotion year with the Watkins+Benhrama sales). Add in Raya sell-on, Kaminski, Phillips, I roughly calculate we have ~£12m of wages/fees to play with over the next couple years, but who knows what will happen if Venky's suddenly can only fund, say, £5-10m losses instead of £15-20m (with cuts to our wage bill having knock-on effects). At least GB has been proactive on contracts (getting that through Venky's heads is probably his greatest contribution; part of why I doubt our wage bill has dropped as much as some suspect), so we haven't quite sold the family silver.

- Sheffield Utd supporting mate says Fleck's pretty washed, but also thought he can probably still do a job in the Championship. For the sake of getting this year over the line, with McFadz, I think there is some sense in bringing in a couple experienced heads without committing to an Ayala-like deal, but something to revisit in the summer.

- Bit of a shame O'Riordan's signing has been so overshadowed, as that looks like a smart pick-up.

- Good that Vale and Bloxham got loans, but disappointing that we couldn't sort loans for Gilsenan, Batty, Markanday, and/or Leonard.

- McGuire's an interesting one as it's quite rare for an MLS draftee to excel like that. Possible we've caught him on a major upswing, but reason to be cautious. Loan-to-buy option lowers the risk (and amazing we've essentially funded that by shipping out Ennis) and maybe he will excel and we'll be happy to take up the option for £5m+ (sneer at MLS if you like, but it should be noted that (successful) £5-10m+ MLS sales aren't out of the norm these days), but if we apparently had to cancel a £3-4m deal to arrange that, it again highlights Venky's schizo funding.

Edited February 2 by RoverCanada

[davulsukur]

38 minutes ago, JHRover said:

The McGuire permanent fee is obviously not being paid, we've agreed to a ridulously high fee option to get him on loan for the time being.

There is no way on this earth that as a Championship or League One club we are paying that sort of fee for anyone, even if he comes in and blows the league away with goals.

All it does is put him in the shop window for a rival to hijack the signing.

This seasons Lewis O'Brien. 

We've royally fucked this up and now we are in a no win situation.

We've paid a "hefty" loan fee, so if the guy bombs, we've paid loads for a crap player and if he comes in and bangs in loads of goals, we've accepted a much higher permanent transfer fee, which we clearly can't afford.

Run by total clowns 🤡

[Oldgregg86]

3 hours ago, Jimmy612 said:

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but I think this transfer window, and the current mood at the club draws pretty strong parallels to the Lambert era, obviously approaching the Coyle farce. 

That season we'd sold Cairney and Gestede, followed by Rhodes in the January window - total sum £20 - £25m.  We'd signed the following;

Doneil Henry	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/379_1464675286.png?lm=1464675287	West Ham	loan transfer
Simeon Jackson	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/349.png?lm=1574162298	Barnsley FC	free transfer
Danny Graham	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/289.png?lm=1485645633	Sunderland	loan transfer
Elliott Ward	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/989.png?lm=1457991811	Bournemouth	free transfer
Tony Watt	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/358.png?lm=1448178743	Charlton	loan transfer
Hope Akpan	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/1032.png?lm=1457723329	Reading	free transfer
Tom Lawrence	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/1003.png?lm=1472229265	Leicester	loan transfer
Fodé Koita	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/1162_1465134668.png?lm=1465134668	SM Caen	free transfer
Nathan Delfouneso	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/1181.png?lm=1407655321	Blackpool	free transfer
Danny Guthrie	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/1032.png?lm=1457723329	Reading	free transfer
Elliott Bennett	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/1123_1658217232.png?lm=1658217233	Norwich	?
Jordi Gómez	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/289.png?lm=1485645633	Sunderland	loan transfer
Matt Grimes	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/2288_1658400144.png?lm=1658400145	Swansea	loan transfer
Modou Barrow	https://tmssl.akamaized.net/images/wappen/tiny/2288_1658400144.png?lm=1658400145	Swansea	loan transfer

 £0.00 spent. 

This season, £25m brought in with Kami, Phillips and Wharton gone.  A chipping away, obvious decline of the squad with assets being flogged to stop the ship from sinking.  The only slight difference this time is that one of our prized assets (BBD) walked away for sweet FA.  They're being replaced by short-sighted, no strategy loans and freebie has-beens. 

JDT, just like Lambert will be disillusioned, sold a cock and bull story that the club has serious aspirations. 

No surprise when he jumps ship this summer and we're left scrabbling around looking for a manager who will take a chance on this complete circus. 

Conspiracy theory of the day. JDT has already had enough and is “doing a klopp” and the powder is being kept dry for our new manager who will be given the funds for a serious promotion push 💪

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

...And the Ewood Circus rolls on.

[JHRover]

Just now, robfranlong81 said:

Great post.  Surely the owners won't want a relegation to League 1 which makes all this penny pinching and austerity even more frustrating.   The club is in complete stagnation - it's been clear that the money generated from the sale of Wharton has or was ear marked for running costs to get the club through to the end of the season. Complete slap in the face or every single fan. 

I think the people making 'strategy' decisions down there are arrogant enough to think that this route is going to comfortably keep us in the Championship.

I don't think it will and this season is proving that the gap really isn't that big once we get on a bad run of form. It really doesn't take much to go from a play-off chasing team to a relegation team, especially when you've taken a wrecking ball to your squad.

If we did go down I don't think the owners would care. I don't think they would have cared in 2017 had Mowbray not quickly jumped on a plane to India and sat down and persuaded them to 'go for it' and get back up. This time around that won't happen, they will just double down on their approach but this time reduce outgoings to compensate for the reduced income in League One and on it goes.

Numpties in the fanbase will just blame Broughton, JDT or the next manager.

Waggott and Pasha clearly aren't judged on results or performance, rather their ability to deliver the owners' agenda which is continual cost cuts.

[roversfan99]

The issue is obviously caused in India, people can't even blame the lack of any investment on not having targets lined up considering we couldn't go through with buying McGuire and instead have a young MLS striker lacking match fitness on loan whereby it will be very difficult to get up to speed quick enough to justify a fee.

But it will be interesting to see if Broughton has the bollocks to tell the truth about not spending on fees.

[glen9mullan]

Reading around the net as a whole, there appears to be far more approval (Even read one tweet suggesting a GB Statue), regarding our business.

Seen a number of posts, suggesting JDT Better not complain as we have not only delivered but gone above and beyond with the best window in years.

Read some post suggesting there is a core of spoilt brats in the supporter base who would rather we spunk the money away that ain't even cold from hitting the bank, and risk the long term future of the club, to prove they are right in terms of the club not being financially supported.

Read posts of Venky.s would if they could , send funds and we need to help them, and Wharton realised this as a fan, and sacrificed himself for the rest of us.

Shocking amount of post suggesting we are well run, and have taken a mature view to the window and not only have options but some incredible ones.

 

 

My own view is the same view as it was before the window, we have again gone quantity over quality, and to add to that picture take short terms options leaving a mammoth rebuilding job in the summer, when the fees generated is whittled away to cover operating costs, and we head out for more loans to build a team.

Nothing against any of the players we've signed, they need to be given a chance, and always will be as its what we do. A mixture of age and youth, so some balance there, but totally underwhelmed of the markets we find ourselves in due to piss poor management, from owners to CEO's to FDS,

I won't be fooled with this loan to buy scenario as we get these all the time and come the time to buy, the criteria has not been met and we send them on the merry way 

[Sparks Rover]

Fleck is the only good signing.

The rest, nobody has a clue if they'll be good or bad, the includes the useless greggy boy.

[DE.]

10 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

- McGuire's an interesting one as it's quite rare for an MLS draftee to excel like that. Possible we've caught him on a major upswing, but reason to be cautious. Loan-to-buy option lowers the risk (and amazing we've essentially funded that by shipping out Ennis) and maybe he will excel and we'll be happy to take up the option for £5m+ (sneer at MLS if you like, but it should be noted that (successful) £5-10m+ MLS sales aren't out of the norm these days), but if we apparently had to cancel a £3-4m deal to arrange that, it again highlights Venky's schizo funding.

I genuinely cannot see us spending £5m on a single player right now - but even if we did, would that be a smart move if we do only have £12m to play with over two seasons? Wages taken into account you'd be looking at half of our two year budget essentially spent on one player. If we already had a strong squad then you'd say yeah, that's okay, but we'll need a major rebuild in the summer. 

All moot in the end anyway, as whether Venky's can fund the club by the summer or not I don't think it's likely we'll see that kind of money spent. Most likely legalities will still be ongoing and I don't see Venky's giving the green light for any major spending until that concludes. 

[KentExile]

14 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Conspiracy theory of the day. JDT has already had enough and is “doing a klopp” and the powder is being kept dry for our new manager who will be given the funds for a serious promotion push 💪

Even if true, with a director of football model, a change in head coach would not change the general playing style of the team or the transfer strategy to any great extent.

Whilst the formation may change, They will still look for defenders (and goalkeepers) who can play it out from the back, pressing forwards, versatile players who can play multiple positions etc.  Whether we like it or not, that is now Rovers playing identity, regardless of who the manager head coach is

Edited February 2 by KentExile

[booth]

4 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Fleck is the only good signing.

The rest, nobody has a clue if they'll be good or bad, the includes the useless greggy boy.

Fleck’s only got one leg according to SU fans.

[J*B]

54 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Yes it is true. This website, under previous management, didn't have a “tone” set out through admin / moderators.

Now it does. When the owner of the site is suggesting that the BBC lancs football pundits, Andy Bayes, the LET and many others, are under some sort of paid agreement to toe the “Venky party line”…. That would’ve never happened before. Conspiratorial nonsense.

Also the very definition of the term Black Hole - what does it mean? A gap - an inexplicable one, in space and time.

@RoverCanada’s post should be required reading prior to anyone posting about funding, because every single penny the club has wasted in 13 years, is in text for all to see.

 I can hold my hand up with everyone else when asked how pissed off I am at the way this set of charlatans run the club. That’s with actual facts, not made up bullshit that literally demeans the real issues involved.

Is this me? I don’t think I’ve ever suggested anyone “is on a paid agreement to toe the Venkys party line” - can you show me where I said that? 

If so, for absolute clarity, I don’t think anyone at BBC Lancs, Andy Bayes or Elliott Jackson are being paid to say specific things. 

[Groundhog]

8 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Fleck is the only good signing.

The rest, nobody has a clue if they'll be good or bad, the includes the useless greggy boy.

What a shit post. Go back to bed. Take your negativity somewhere else. God help us if the players read shit like this. Board is full of it. I despise Venkys and our CEO as much as the next person, but this stuff is uncalled for.

People hating on Gregg, he's bound by some severe restrictions and is as frustrated as us I can imagine, people want a scapegoat - he should not be the subject of your ire. 

Edited February 2 by Groundhog

[davulsukur]

39 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Fleck is the only good signing.

The rest, nobody has a clue if they'll be good or bad, the includes the useless greggy boy.

Not sure Fleck will be all that tbh. Sounds like he's finished at any reasonable level. (Probably why Sheff Utd gave him to us)

Edited February 2 by davulsukur

[booth]

If McGuire is good I can see the club paying for him, just because they’ll be looking at selling him on in a season or two’s time. If the money is there they won’t pass up the chance of doubling it.

SS out, McGuire in.

[XLM]

Just a quick question for those on here who are particularly down about the window, and are lamenting the club for not spending the Wharton money...

What did you expect to happen?

I'm frankly shocked that we brought anyone in at all yesterday. I fully expected every single penny we got from Wharton to go on running costs.

What would you do as GB or Waggot? It's an impossible situation for them, there is no guarantee the club will be able to pay the bills since there's no guarantee Venkys can send money over to cover our costs. We basically have no owners, but can't sell the club. The risk means they had to bring money in.

They are never going to want the club to go into admin, that would obviously be a failure of their responsibilities (even if not their fault).

This isn't me saying Waggot is doing a great job, very obviously the commercial side of the club is hugely underperforming and a lot of that is on him. I'm not saying GB is doing a perfect job either, though how people can put so much blame on him given the changing budgets and no money is absurd.

This is no let off for Venkys either, they are shit owners. They are the reason we are a bog standard second tier club that's going absolutely nowhere. I would have preferred to not sell AW, risk admin, flog him for nothing, get relegated and get rid of Venkys. But if I thought for one second that those at the club wouldn't try to avoid that scenario like the plague, then I'd be a moron and they wouldn't be fit to be employed.