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Rovers vs Reading at Virtual Ewood


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3 hours ago, ElTwis said:

Morning all! First time I've logged in to the forum in 13 years I believe but for some reason this year has got me excited to be a rovers fan again. 

 

What a frustrating game last night, I agree with those suggesting JRC shouldn't be right back, seems to me TM rates him and wants him in the game but can't find the right position for him beyond realising he should be somewhere wide. Nyambe for me next game. 

 

It's probably unfair to judge Pears from last night, conceding after 9 seconds is bound to knock anyone's confidence, especially if he's being asked to play the keeper/sweeper role as appears and this is alien to him. Incidentally, can anyone find a keeper who's conceded faster on debut?! 

 

Not sure whats happening at centre back but I think playing with 2 full backs expected to attack is playing a part. Let's maybe let the defenders defend, especially with 5 attack minded mid/fwds ahead of them. 

Finally, I worry about the balance of the team, we seem to have a lot of players who are realistically attacking midfielders but no further defined roles? I don't know, its good to watch sometimes, we'll see how it works out. 

So, first post in over a decade! I still have faith in TM, we're never boring to watch at the moment and the seasons only just started... I think it's going to be a fun ride

Exactly mate, the balance is all wrong. The defence is essentially exposed for 90 mins, no cover in front and no cover on the flanks. It's a choice Mowbray has made so he can press high up the pitch. 

I see Warnock is 7 unbeaten. He just sets his teams up to be solid and it brings success. He's a pragmatist. 

It going to be an eventful season, but I don't think it will end in success unless Mowbray changes tack. 

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25 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Joao had ability when he was here, it was just that he just played when he felt like it. Reading seem to have him motivated.

For now.Fair play to him and Reading for their stary to the season.But João has always had hot n cold spells.At Wednesday he was unplayable in some games then goes missing that's why they sold him .If he could find consistency and play at his best level most the time he would be playing at a higher level,very talented player 

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  • Moderation Lead

I suppose the biggest irony in the comparison between Warnock and Mowbray is that Warnock used to be a winter, but Mowbray used to be a defender. 
One of those puts more stock in building from the back and it isn’t the ex centre back....

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I've been ruminating on the game yesterday. I think the message is now pretty obvious that against good counter attacking teams we are in trouble with the 433. Our lack the pace and physicality at the back makes us vulnerable. Douglas obviously has brought a lot of attacking quality to the team but he doensn't have pace we really need to recover. And JRC at right back is reminiscent of Ben Marshall at RB a few years back. Great if you are dominant but mad if you actually expect him to defend. We do at least have Nyambe who we can bring back.

Boils down to us needing a plan B. 433 fine - in fact I absolutely love it - for where we can out work the other side physically and have more pace (Wycombe, Coventry, Derby etc)  and they intend to come out and play. But if we are playing a proper counter attacking team who are stronger physically and quicker than us we need to be smarter, play a deeper line with two deeper midfielders and don't get caught out. Probably something like 

                          Kaminki

Nyambe      Ayala     Williams    Douglas

              Holtby.   Johnson/Trybull

         JRC            Elliot          Brereton

                       Armstrong

Looking at the fixture list next game with a proper counter attacking team is Boro game after next. I would seriously consider changing the system for that game.

 

Edited by joey_big_nose
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35 minutes ago, Fraserkirky said:

between esteves or Olise, best player I’ve see. In the championship so far. Wow

People keep mentioning Esteves. Decided to look him up - he's only on loan from Porto, just 18. Imagine they won't have a chance of holding onto him unless they get promoted and pay big bucks.

Edited by Gavlar Somerset Rover!
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3 hours ago, davulsukur said:

We can't play 4-3-3 against the better teams. We are far too fragile on the counter.

Bournemouth, Watford and Reading, 2 teams you expect to be near the top end of the league and Reading who currently occupy top spot have managed to score 10 goals past us in 3 games.

Watford and Reading pretty much had the game sewn up within 18 mins, scoring either 2 or 3 goals leaving us a mountain to climb in both situations. Bournemouth were 1 up on 25mins and we were chasing the game from then on, equalising twice before still being unable to keep the ball out of our own net for a 3rd time. 

We can put the poorer teams to the sword but even Coventry hit the post before we scored.

Mowbray needs an alternative formation/set up for the better teams, 4-2-3-1 perhaps which leaves us less exposed on the counter. We aren't going to steamroll over every team, our players aren't good enough and the defence is comically woeful at times.

Absolutely this, our high press game works when we are dominant and looking to score but we can’t start like this against the better teams of the league. We need to grind a result against those teams. Looks far far too easy to pick us off on the break. 
tony has no plan b, finds a system that works against some and sticks by it. Result is we will thump some but be thumped ourselves quite a bit. Result is mid table.

guy has no tactical talent whatsoever. Fans can see more than this guy

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1 hour ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

Could I ask what he did wrong last night. His position  for the first goal was a mystery - but so was our whole defence. But I struggle to think in which situations he could have done better. It is a genuine question - I know we let in 4 goals, but not certain what he could have done better (other than 1st goal - but the outcome would have been the same)

It’s just a feeling, just something says he didn’t look right, didn’t look confident. As you say it’s hard to point out any mistakes he made, but for some reason he looked like a young academy keeper thrown in too soon.

best I can do.

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3 minutes ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Absolutely this, our high press game works when we are dominant and looking to score but we can’t start like this against the better teams of the league. We need to grind a result against those teams. Looks far far too easy to pick us off on the break. 
tony has no plan b, finds a system that works against some and sticks by it. Result is we will thump some but be thumped ourselves quite a bit. Result is mid table.

guy has no tactical talent whatsoever. Fans can see more than this guy

And yet he gets accused of tinkering too much ?.  Get a formation and stick to it, dont worry so much about the opposition has often been leveled at him. 

I am not saying you are necessarily wrong - but just pointing out how difficult it is to please all the fans all the time.

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We've needed a couple of imposing centre backs for years, none of ours currently fit that criteria. If we had that, with our attacking options, we'd be a force to be reckoned with. Lenihan and Williams should be squad players, not the first choice central defence pairing. I'm happy with all the other aspects of our squad, if not the tactics and how they are played. 

Mowbray is out thought time and again by cannier managers and Warnock will be licking his lips.

As an option, with the players available, perhaps 3 at the back of Nyambe, Ayala and Williams, with JRC and Douglas as wing backs could be an option?

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18 minutes ago, den said:

It’s just a feeling, just something says he didn’t look right, didn’t look confident. As you say it’s hard to point out any mistakes he made, but for some reason he looked like a young academy keeper thrown in too soon.

best I can do.

Spot on Den.  His kicking was very poor too.

His whole demeanour suggested a non- professional player. At the end of the day he is the son of a popular Middlesbrough goalkeeper who's probably had a free pass throughout the academy junior and youth ranks because the coaches know his dad and like to suck up to ex pros.....He's clearly not good enough and Tony has done a Paul Downing and give him a good contract well above his pay grade.  That's football folks.

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1 minute ago, Sparks Rover said:

Spot on Den.  His kicking was very poor too.

His whole demeanour suggested a non- professional player. At the end of the day he is the son of a popular Middlesbrough goalkeeper who's probably had a free pass throughout the academy junior and youth ranks because the coaches know his dad and like to suck up to ex pros.....He's clearly not good enough and Tony has done a Paul Downing and give him a good contract well above his pay grade.  That's football folks.

What has his dad got to do with anything? 

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1 hour ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

Could I ask what he did wrong last night. His position  for the first goal was a mystery - but so was our whole defence. But I struggle to think in which situations he could have done better. It is a genuine question - I know we let in 4 goals, but not certain what he could have done better (other than 1st goal - but the outcome would have been the same)

Thought his positioning for the 4th goal wasnt great either. 

It was more his presence or lack thereof. Distribution wasnt fantastic, didnt look great on crosses and didnt sweep like kaminski does which may have contributed to the shambolic defending (possibly). Bar a good reflex save from williams he didnt do a lot right.

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Just now, BlackburnEnd75 said:

Thought his positioning for the 4th goal wasnt great either. 

It was more his presence or lack thereof. Distribution wasnt fantastic, didnt look great on crosses and didnt sweep like kaminski does which may have contributed to the shambolic defending (possibly). Bar a good reflex save from williams he didnt do a lot right.

Only player to come off the pitch with credit last night was Armstrong he didn’t do anything else but score 2 goals but that’s what you want from your strikers. So can’t really blame it all on the keeper defending was terrible the worst it has been since relegation to league 1 

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I felt a bit for Tom Trybull, in essence he was being asked to do a two man job and cover in DM for the marauding fullbacks. Last night you had Corry Evans ineffective in some bizarre midfield position I couldn’t make sense of what his role actually was, wasn’t defensive cover (which it should be) wasn’t assisting attack or even box to box just a strange static role. Because of how ineffective the midfield was trybull was overworked and the lack of shielding saw reading taking a run at our centre backs way too frequently. The players might not have all been available last night but you must adapt to the 11 on the pitch having Evans do anything other than DM tidy work is like asking a dog to play the banjo.

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3 minutes ago, Steptoe87 said:

Only player to come off the pitch with credit last night was Armstrong he didn’t do anything else but score 2 goals but that’s what you want from your strikers. So can’t really blame it all on the keeper defending was terrible the worst it has been since relegation to league 1 

Yeah it's not often the whole defence has a really bad day at the office.

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Still fuming about last night. This style of play has allowed to us to run riot against the 3 teams on the lowest points in the league but against better teams it just leaves us hopelessly exposed. The first goal in particular was absolutely pathetic, to concede in that manner was unacceptable and unforgivable.

I am a bit surprised to see Lenihan get all of the blame at centre back, i though Williams was really poor and perhaps slightly worse, his attempt at a tackle for the second goal was embarassing. We know that he can be a capable stand in but hes never good enough to support where we want to go. That being said, the pair just seemed totally exposed by the style. Rankin Costello is a real dilemma, his cross for the second was very good but he is nowhere near competent enough to play as a full back, even though his deliveries come from deep. We arent Liverpool with Robertson and Trent at full back, bring Nyambe back and play him regularly. Douglas was abysmal yesterday too. Pears looked like a little boy in net and for the first 2 goals, especially the second, I would question his role.

Trybull didnt totally convince me in that holding role and Evans cannot play slightly further forward. Holtby was ineffective, hes a talented player but sadly most of his games in a Rovers shirt have been like that. Buckley was a pointless sub, instantly brushed off the ball.

Armstrong surely will be thinking about the next transfer window, prolific goalscorers dont stay forever in mid table teams. Elliott definitely has quality and a great ball for the first. Brereton was again ineffective as he is more often than not. We have too many players that Mowbray has signed that have more quiet games than good games. Dolan was quite bright when he came on, Gallagher was absolutely shocking, technically totally bereft and incapable. And why does he keep getting shunted out wide, only highlighting his technical inability? Baffling 

When does the point come when we compromise on or even abandon these ideas of total football, with a few laughable comparisons to Liverpool thrown in? We dont have the players to be so blaze with our style. And at one point do we roll the dice on the manager, I am not necessarily saying change him now but this has a feeling of a last season before a bit of a factory reset with a few loanees and players approaching the end of their contracts so we cant afford yet more of a work in progress.

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21 minutes ago, Steptoe87 said:

What has his dad got to do with anything? 

You havent a clue.  It has everything to do with it.  Unless you are familiar with how youth academy football is, then you wouldnt know how much nepotism and cronyism goes on.  The game is riddled with it...Seen it too many times at the expense of talent who's dad wasnt a professional footballer.

Edited by Sparks Rover
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4 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

You havent a clue.  It has everything to do with it.  Unless you are familiar with how youth academy football is, then you wouldnt know how much nepotism and cronyism goes on.  The game is riddled with it...Seen it too many times at the expense of talent who's dad wasnt a professional footballer.

Me too. There was a lad in our youth league called Chris Cattlin, he played left back but he was nothing really special at the time.  There was another lad who was twice the left back he was who never really got the break. Cattlin's dad was a Football League referee at the time and got him on at Huddersfield Town. He had a good career and later got a big money move to Coventry. He turned out to be a decent player but would that have happened if his dad hadn't have got him a leg up ?

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If mowbray wants to persist with Rankin Costello in this role then he needs to change the formation to three centre backs there is far too much space down our right with jrc stranded upfield for the opposition to exploit. Unfortunately his previous efforts of playing three at the back didn't Fair well basically can't set up a defence

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Mowbray's methods will not be successful in terms of promotion. On occasion we will blow teams away when playing well and with a fair wind in our favour, but on at least as many occasions we will be caught out and punished for it.

As above, the proven mastermind in the Championship is doing it again at Middlesbrough. 7 unbeaten now and clear of us. Anyone expect us to go 7 unbeaten anytime soon?

How has he done that? Through making them hard to break down and hard to score against and go from there. Hanging on in there until the 70th and 80th minute at 0-0 then nicking games. It doesn't require 60-70% possession, it doesn't require 20+ attempts on goal, it doesn't require the Watford and Reading managers heaping praise on us, it doesn't even require a 20+ a season goalscorer.

It is the tried and tested method and it works time after time, because even when struggling you have the basics right and don't lose games easily or cheaply, which is what we have done at Bournemouth, Forest and last night. Even when struggling you can nick games late on or grind out bore draws which keep the points ticking over and develop good habits of not losing games.

None of that here and never will be under this manager. He can't do it but doesn't even really want to because he thinks that sort of approach is beneath him.

For someone who spent his playing days as a CB at Middlesbrough and Ipswich and has spent all but one season of his entire managerial career in the lower divisions or Scotland that is strange. It is also noticeable how everywhere he goes he always has a good relationship with fans because most people see what he is trying, and failing, to achieve.

Many people will accept and be happy with win one, lose one, draw one if we are scoring goals, creating chances and walloping a few along the way. But it is inconsistent and will not result in promotion.

The club need to decide if they are happy with that. In a normal world with supposedly owners eager to get promoted you'd expect not but I get the impression that everyone is more than happy with how things are whilst losing tens of millions of pounds for it.

 

Think he’s trying to make the team attractive to watch, and hopefully to win matches as well, Nyambe needs to come back in at R/b and much as I like JRC he’s not good enough at full back, right midfielder come winger is his position.
Douglas seemed a decent loan but needs to be better defensively,

It’s certainly exciting to watch and hopefully he can tighten up at the back, and still think we could have a good season.

You seem to be quick off the mark to criticise when we get beat but nothing when we give someone a hammering.

Hopefully he knows now his best players playing in the right positions, still think we can be in the top six come May, and yes tighten up but keep playing exciting stuff.

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We have beaten three very poor teams this season - great to watch but probably giving a slightly false impression. In two of those matches the oponents had 10 men for a fair chunk of the match which helped the goal difference.

We have failed with every other challange we have faced this season.

Home form is bad - even failing to beat Cardiff when they went down to 10 men. We seem to play into the hands of the opposition every time by not breaking down defensive sides and being too open against better sides.

Tony says we are on a journey - yes it's a never ending roundabout. Been here before!

Personally I wouldn't give Mowbray much longer. A change of manager could galvanise this squad into something more productive than it currently is.

Edited by Crimpshrine
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