Brockhall STC - planning permission application ?

[islander200]

21 minutes ago, tomphil said:

What these clowns and some on here don't grasp is that it would need 20k ave gates in this league to make any difference. Even then if the thing isn't run right - which it 100% wouldn't be - then we'd still end up in the same boat.

 

 

It wouldnt have to be an av gate of 20k for us to become more self sufficient. 

We need to start being a trading club, not holding onto assets too long and onlt selling them when their value has fallen.

Brentford didnt get crowds of 20k a week

 

[perthblue02]

1 hour ago, martonrover said:

Some clowns were posting “It’s the fans fault” garbage on the Facebook group yesterday.

 

They do have a point, I heard Madame ,Barry and Tache were absolutely furious when the supporters sacked Big Sam and appointed that T*** Kean, also heard the fans started a go fund me for a sleeping bag and camping stove for Jerome so he didnt have to travel to Barnet and back.

No wonder the V's hate us for ruining their little baby

[toogs]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

So what should we have done to avoid sanctions?

I assume that's a rhetorical question.

[tomphil]

42 minutes ago, islander200 said:

It wouldnt have to be an av gate of 20k for us to become more self sufficient. 

We need to start being a trading club, not holding onto assets too long and onlt selling them when their value has fallen.

Brentford didnt get crowds of 20k a week

 

Which highlights my point about how clubs are run and teams are managed. There's been more than enough funding/backing or whatever you want to call it here under Vs tenure for us to be a much healthier club.

If we were a decent top 6 challenging outfit regularly then over the course of the season we'd have a few thousand more regulars. The income would certainly help and Ewood would be a better place on matchday, although this season the atmosphere is actually probably better than its been for a while.

However in bigger picture terms it wouldn't make much difference being run the way we are. The extra million or two gate money would still be swallowed up by gigantic losses. Probably this management pissing it down the drain on a few 20k pwk loans like Downing that would make sod all difference in the long term.

It certainly wouldn't stop them needing cash injections like the sale of the training ground. You would need 5k extras through the gates every match to stave off that kind of thing. That isn't and has never happened at a club like Rovers hanging around in mid table in the championship.

These are just cold hard facts for a club like us and always have been, we'll always need some kind of funding in the modern era. Being a realist in terms of size of the club is fine but those who constantly lay blame at the door of fans and crowds are plonkers trying to justify their own contribution.

They need to look at the gates some clubs in this league are getting, clubs based in larger and in some cases more affluent towns and cities. 

[47er]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

It wouldnt have to be an av gate of 20k for us to become more self sufficient. 

We need to start being a trading club, not holding onto assets too long and onlt selling them when their value has fallen.

Brentford didnt get crowds of 20k a week

 

We did till Venkys turned up and more. We had 19000+ after were relegated the first time.

When Venkys took over we had healthy crowds of around 25000 with all the pies, parking fees and programmes and beer that that involves.

But the club had the sense to charge cheap entrance then and it worked.

Edited October 28, 2021 by 47er

[Wheelton Blue]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

Yep then by the end of it the owners have taken the fixed assets from the club to themselves. Then they can sell them to get their money back and buy a smaller cheaper site and stick up their kit build cheaper smaller training center.

My thoughts are the same.

On the face of it, the 'sale' of the STC from BRFC to the new business makes short term sense from a FFP angle; it allows the owners to inject additional cash into the business.

Once a business starts to sell assets to raise cash though, that's never a good sign. This is effectively what they're doing.

[roversfan99]

Plenty of people defend Venkys and deflect towards Mowbray and Waggott, that I find odd and confusing. I see Mowbray as on the face of it a genuine bloke but one who has been underperforming for 18 months after doing a pretty good job prior. Waggott's value since his appointment is something I am not convinced by, but Venkys are the common denominator in 11 years of woe. 

To defend Venkys by slandering the fans is utterly disgusting yet sadly common. Supporting a football club is not a "job" at all, not to everyone, nor an obligation that precedes everything, money, family etc.

The thing that anyone even tempted to suggest as such needs to take a step back and think, who am I even slagging off? Every club has a core support that, finance and personal life permitting, will come regardless, and they still do here. Some, of which a percentage is unclear can't come anymore. Perhaps out of principle of funding owners who wont listen, the protests (of which I attended a number of) didn't work, it takes a hell of a personal sacrifice to give up something you care so much about because of how strongly you feel. Are they not supporters, do they deserve resentment above what the owners deserve? No chance. Or equally people who have grown so disenchanted at having hope ripped away from us.

And some simply might come for a promotion party on the cheap or a big game, but ultimately either lack the money to come every week, the interest in football or in Rovers, the freedom within their personal time, the time off work to justify the expense, whatever it is, why do those people deserve resentment and looking down upon? Why does it have to be a case of either you are in 100% or you are out and don't deserve the club?

Obviously, the fact that the primary source of todays anti-supporter spiel boycotted himself for a year because he had a "bad feeling" about the manager sums it up.

Also, this continuous crap about the owners investing 20m a year or propping up the club, bollocks. The losses are as high as they are because of them, the investment is not out of the goodness of their heart, nor would we automatically become Bury if they suddenly decided against it. Take an active interest, employ more competent people, think longer term (including on contracts to valuable assets) and have a plan, be more proactive, it doesn't need to be so high.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

In other words - run Blackburn Rovers like a normal football club !

After 10 years, in our hearts, we all know it isn’t going to happen.

[AllRoverAsia]

3 hours ago, blondie said:

History says otherwise.

Sure people attended watching a Premier League winning side, but don't forget the dwindling attendances Ince/Allardyce era.

John Williams drastically reducing season ticket prices to raise attendances.

Are people who add clauses to there attendance at Ewood, like Premiership football or a change of ownership ,  just fans and not supporters.

Being a Rovers supporter is not conditional, it's supporting through good times and bad.

We will only be a strong as the income we achieve, which larger attendances will go a small part in helping.

 

For those who prefer truth the opposite actually happened

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/blar.htm

Edited October 28, 2021 by AllRoverAsia

[Mattyblue]

Correct, the attendances began to dwindle from 2003/2004 on the back of a top 6 finish  - and throughout most of the Hughes era - who of course, was a top manager for us.

It was ever increasing pricing that saw crowds drop, nothing do with what was on the pitch.
 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

4 hours ago, JHRover said:

So lets get this right on the timing.

February 2021 - a member of the public discovers on the Ribble Valley planning portal that Rovers have had plans drawn up to demolish the STC, build a housing estate on it and combine both sides onto the lower academy site.

Once this discovery is made the Waggott, in embarrassing fashion, attempts to sell the project as being a good, positive, forward step for the Club, even recording a face to face interview to extol the positives of this, claiming that the Ribble Valley planning department had taken him by surprise in releasing the plans online before Rovers had announced it themselves.

The Club then spends god knows how much instructing surveyors and planners and running a consultation period, setting up a website etc.

By 9th April 2021 the club has performed a complete U turn, confirming that the proposals would not be progressed and "will now consider other options".

By 11th June 2021 a company has been set up seemingly with the sole purpose of purchasing the STC, and by 24th June 2021 that purchase has been completed and the transfer registered at HMLR.

4 whole months pass by with no mention of anything from the Club until 27th October 2021 when once again a member of the public discovers via the submission of documents online about the transfer earlier in the year. Within a couple of hours the Lancashire Telegraph have managed to obtain something from "a club spokesman" blaming the pandemic and FFP rules - both of which were there many months earlier and during the housing estate efforts.

I'm sorry but it is going to take more than the textbook blame FFP or the pandemic to make me believe there isnt more to this than meets the eye.

The way you have timelined it would suggest the other “option” they explored was to raise capital by selling the land to themselves 

Which on the face of it appears to have happened 

I’m as sceptical as the rest about their intentions but I really am struggling to see how that timeline points to a conspiracy as yet 

The big worry is why nobody mentioned anything until a fan discovered it, but that’s nowt new 

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Wheelton Blue said:

My thoughts are the same.

On the face of it, the 'sale' of the STC from BRFC to the new business makes short term sense from a FFP angle; it allows the owners to inject additional cash into the business.

Once a business starts to sell assets to raise cash though, that's never a good sign. This is effectively what they're doing.

This is what i'v'e said all along whilst dozens on facebook etc are whooping with delight. Once it's gone off the club books it's gone it doesn't really matter who buys it.

Ok in our case it looks like the actual club owners have bought it themselves but it now belongs to them not the entity that is BRFC.  So the only way it comes back to the club is if it's bought back. Impossible without a stint in the Prem or it is gifted back for free or a token sum.

Unlikely although maybe they could use the loss on the books as some massive tax right off.

So in all probability now it stays with them and is leased back to the club, until they decide the time is right to hatch the new training ground plans.

[Gav]

30 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Correct, the attendances began to dwindle from 2003/2004 on the back of a top 6 finish  - and throughout most of the Hughes era - who of course, was a top manager for us.

It was ever increasing pricing that saw crowds drop, nothing do with what was on the pitch.
 

Football also existed long before the Premiership.

If the club was doing well, Gordon Lee, Jim Smith and Howard Kendall - Don Mackay back end of the 80's, the fans turned up. It had nothing to do with prices and everything to do what was on the pitch.

This football club will survive long after these swine's have left, we'll have good times and we'll have bad, but one thing is for certain, if the product on the pitch is worth supporting, the fans will turn up.

[Bigdoggsteel]

19 minutes ago, tomphil said:

This is what i'v'e said all along whilst dozens on facebook etc are whooping with delight. Once it's gone off the club books it's gone it doesn't really matter who buys it.

Ok in our case it looks like the actual club owners have bought it themselves but it now belongs to them not the entity that is BRFC.  So the only way it comes back to the club is if it's bought back. Impossible without a stint in the Prem or it is gifted back for free or a token sum.

Unlikely although maybe they could use the loss on the books as some massive tax right off.

So in all probability now it stays with them and is leased back to the club, until they decide the time is right to hatch the new training ground plans.

Isn't that auxiliary company that bought it set up solely for functions in relation to Blackburn rovers football club though? I suppose if they ever do go, that would be part of the deal? As in someone else would need to acquire it along with the club? I'm only guessing about that....

I think this move is becoming the norm at clubs really. They all pull strokes to use their owners money, especially the top clubs. 

If Venkys were successful here up to now we would probably all be saying it's a great idea/move 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Bigdoggsteel

[Wheelton Blue]

25 minutes ago, Gav said:

Football also existed long before the Premiership.

If the club was doing well, Gordon Lee, Jim Smith and Howard Kendall - Don Mackay back end of the 80's, the fans turned up. It had nothing to do with prices and everything to do what was on the pitch.

Price is definitley more of a factor now though.

The cost of watching a match these days, is relatively far more expensive than what it was back in the day.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Wheelton Blue

[RevidgeBlue]

10 hours ago, lraC said:

It’s a worry. Imagine someone buying the club out of administration, who are cobbling the money together to save the club. Option 1 is to pay a rent to the people who ruined the club, to use a training facility. Option 2 is to go back to using the playing fields, in the local park.

Or, option 3, in that rather extreme and currently seemingly very unlikely scenario is that any future purchaser could utilise the money they've saved in not having to buy Brockhall towards the purchase of a new facility.

Seems to me the owners are re-affirming their commitment to the Club and bedding in for the long haul rather than the opposite I.e. clearing the decks for a sale and/or administration scenario.

What they have to do is start employing the right people to run and manage the Club.

28/10/21. Come back to this and quote me in future if I'm wrong.

[RevidgeBlue]

9 hours ago, islander200 said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/19677234.comply-ffp---blackburn-rovers-sold-brockhall-training-base/

Financial experts opinion the sale was done purely to comply with FFP

At least Mr Maguire has a broad handle on what's going on.

The article tends to indicate any income counting towards FFP calculations had to be in before 1st of July and from memory Armstrong wasn't sold until some time after that. The loophole on selling your training ground back to yourself was also seemingly closing so it would appear that's all that's happened here.

[Mattyblue]

28 minutes ago, Gav said:

Football also existed long before the Premiership.

If the club was doing well, Gordon Lee, Jim Smith and Howard Kendall - Don Mackay back end of the 80's, the fans turned up. It had nothing to do with prices and everything to do what was on the pitch.

This football club will survive long after these swine's have left, we'll have good times and we'll have bad, but one thing is for certain, if the product on the pitch is worth supporting, the fans will turn up.

But it was to do with prices in the 2000s. We had just finished 6th in the PL in 2003 by spanking Tottenham 4-0 at WHL… we then lost ST holders that summer.

Mark Hughes created a top side, we then started the 2005/2006 season with a 16,000 crowd (the Tugay volley from a corner game) as STs had gone up again.

We then saw booming crowds under Sam, who certainly wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea - why? Reduced tickets.

Yes, a good team is good for gates, but as this club so is reasonably priced tickets.

[RevidgeBlue]

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

But it was to do with prices in the 2000s. We had just finished 6th in the PL in 2003 by spanking Tottenham 4-0 at WHL… we then lost ST holders that summer.

Mark Hughes created a top side, we then started the 2005/2006 season with a 16,000 crowd (the Tugay volley from a corner game) as STs had gone up again.

We then saw booming crowds under Sam, who certainly wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea - why? Reduced tickets.

Yes, a good team is good for gates, but as this club so is reasonably priced tickets.

Agreed.

I remember paying nearly £500 for a ticket in JWU in the early 2000's. John Williams was initially most resistant to the concept of lowering prices until the then Fans Forum challenged him on it. He hailed from Southampton and was pals with Southampton chairman Rupert Lowe and their view at that time was basically that the Club should be able to charge what they want and as a fan you should demonstrate your loyalty and support and pay it.

Fast forward to today and the combination of a dreadful manager and CEO, average team, generally unpopular owners and prices raised since just before a pandemic have contributed to a perfect storm re attendances.

[den]

40 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Isn't that auxiliary company that bought it set up solely for functions in relation to Blackburn rovers football club though? I suppose if they ever do go, that would be part of the deal? 

Why would it? If/when Venkys leave, they could possibly want to recoup every penny they could. That piece of land is prime land with planning permission and would bring a lot of money.

[blondie]

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

For those who prefer truth the opposite actually happened

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/blar.htm

 

24 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

 

We then saw booming crowds under Sam, who certainly wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea - why? Reduced tickets.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

9 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

I’ve never cared for Venkys. Absent owners don’t work whatever the money spent. They don’t care enough.
 

What I do know is that our absent owners have spent £150m of their own money propping the club up whilst large numbers of supposed ‘supporters’ - people who self proclaim to love the club wont find £20 to buy a ticket for the match. They hide behind the Venky narrative.

The job of supporters is to get down to the ground and support the team in good and bad times. Football for fans is like religion or devotion to your kids. It’s endless and enduring in spite of hardship.

The saddest thing about Venkys reign is that they’ve shown just how fickle our supporters are. The 9k gates are pitiful and show the world how much we care. As custodians of the club we are the generation who are responsible for taking it forward by going to the game with our children to grow the next wave of Rovers suppprters.

Heres a thought…has anyone sat back and thought that some of the lads out of contract don’t want to sign because in reality there’s no soul in the club? Absent owners AND an absent fan base? Who cares at the club? Absolute carnage.

I think that's too far.

In my opinion you cannot question the owners financial support for the Club. When we were relegated from the Premier League I certainly never expected them to still be here ten or so years later still supporting the Club. I thought they'd run for the hills at the earliest opportunity leaving us high and dry and I'd bet my last pound the Walker Trust would have done had we been relegated under them.

Ten years on, from the bits I hear I think the owners are just as committed to the Club as they ever were if not more so.

All that said..........let's get it right, the last eleven years have been shite. You can't blame the fans for becoming disillusioned and dropping off. Eleven years - we've lost a generation.

You can't turn back time. They HAVE to get it right going forward however. I do believe the first small steps in that direction are in motion but there's obviously still a very long way to go

[tomphil]

55 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Isn't that auxiliary company that bought it set up solely for functions in relation to Blackburn rovers football club though? I suppose if they ever do go, that would be part of the deal? As in someone else would need to acquire it along with the club? I'm only guessing about that....

I think this move is becoming the norm at clubs really. They all pull strokes to use their owners money, especially the top clubs. 

If Venkys were successful here up to now we would probably all be saying it's a great idea/move 

God knows but we'll just have to pray they've done it the right way. Not sure any club who has tried this has prospered on the back of it. 

If it was so straightforwards and made so much sense then loads would be at it.

The Raos haven't been successful in anything they've done here so far in a whole decade of trying. No reason to think this is anything other than a desperate act brought about through desperation rather than any great plan.

[RevidgeBlue]

17 minutes ago, den said:

Why would it? If/when Venkys leave, they could possibly want to recoup every penny they could. That piece of land is prime land with planning permission and would bring a lot of money.

You're not making any sense den. If Venky's left and wanted to recoup every penny they could, why wouldn't they include it in any sale?

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

The way you have timelined it would suggest the other “option” they explored was to raise capital by selling the land to themselves 

Which on the face of it appears to have happened 

I’m as sceptical as the rest about their intentions but I really am struggling to see how that timeline points to a conspiracy as yet 

The big worry is why nobody mentioned anything until a fan discovered it, but that’s nowt new 

I think the suspicious thing is how quickly we went from one thing to the other. In February/March all the talk from Maggott and the Club and some people on here was how it was a good idea to amalgamate training sites into one, claims from the club that this was a decision being made to improve facilities, that it would require further owner investment and was being done to usher in a bright future for the football club.

By April that grand exciting scheme had been abandoned, by June there was a transfer out of the club's control and by October we are now being told that this was a necessary step due to the pandemic and FFP rules. Strange how those thiings didn't come up in Waggott's appraisal in February. Back then it was all hunky dory and Venkys were tipping extra cash in to build the super duper new training centre.

My assessment - this is all smoke and mirrors - the original plan was nothing more than a cash grab dressed up under the guise of improved facilities, they then hit the buffers on that due to immense public opposition and instead have quickly moved on to plan B which is underway with this transfer. I think more will come out in the months to come but unfortunately we will have to rely on supporters going and doing their own research rather than any transparency from the club.

I think people interpreting this as a mere accounting stunt to dodge FFP issues are going to be surprised in time to come. Hope I'm wrong because the last thing I want is to lose the crown jewels but I think that is what we are seeing here.

Edited October 28, 2021 by JHRover