v The Dingles (a) - 13/11/2022

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The players have to take some responsibly for the decisions to play out from the back cos sometimes yesterday Kaminski didn't, so maybe the questions that need to be asked to the players is why the players decided to play out when they did. That will be done today by JDT and the players in a team meeting over the game. 

It's still a foul for me whether the ball is in the net or not. It was clearly push that didn't need to happen. 

What did Buckley actually do yesterday? I'm a big fan of his but he hasn't been good enough this season. 

I made a number of points yesterday as to where I said I thought JDT went wrong whether it formation selected or team selection. I have replied to your points in JDT, and I even agree with you on some points. 

I think your attitude towards young players in general the same apart from Adam Wharton.  Adam Wharton has been decent/good in some games but also poor in some like Stoke. Garrett was very good against Sunderland for example which you didn't agree with. 

Again you seem reluctant to blame Tomasson SPECIFICALLY REGARDING YESTERDAYS MATCH. Tomasson will sort it and we are 3rd in the league are your 2 standard lines, without showing any accountability. You also are now implying that players should or indeed were going away from the gameplan, a football team is an embodiment of its manager hence why so much stock is placed into their importance.

Your comment about my view of the academy players is not only incorrect but childish. Garrett was ok v Sunderland although never man of the match worthy, but in general I have not been overly impressed.

Ashley Barnes is a tosser but it was a perfectly valid goal, momentum took him into Kaminski albeit there was certainly some intention to leave one on him, but the ball had long since crossed the line.

17 minutes ago, J*B said:

It's the day after but not much has changed.

I still think Mola starting off the back of one good game against West Ham was a huge error of judgement, whether he is fast or not. I suspect the beating he took will end his career here, unlikely to recover from that.

I still think Garrett starting in central midfield was a huge error of judgement. He's nowhere near ready for that sort of game.

I still think Morton playing in the Szmodics role was disastrous and ultimately cost us the game. Neither Travis or Garrett could hold on to the ball and that played right into their strong central midfields hands.

I still think inverted fullbacks is far too clever for the Championship. I can see the logic when you have Kyle Walker and Cancelo, but not where we are. 

I still think Hedges is absolutely wasted at left wing back. 

I still think Pickering was very hard done to. 

I still think playing out from the back doesn't suit any of our central defenders apart from Wharton.

I still think not having a reasonable option off the bench when Gallagher got injured changed the game. Hirst clearly isn't trusted and Vale has no future here. 

 

Despite a decent set of results in the first half of the season, I'm now looking down at the table rather than up for after the World Cup. We're yet to get any sort of result after conceding first. We're still making the same mistakes we where at the start of the season. We're only 5 points above 7th place. I suspect a classic Mowbray-style breakdown in the New Year, unless we can address all of the below issues in January.

1) Dack has to go. I love him, but if he isn't trusted ahead of Vale then his time here is done and its best for all parties we remember the memories and wish him well. 

2) Hirst must be returned to Leicester. There's perhaps a player in there best of the performances for Pompy, but as yet we haven't seen anything in him and he's being the awful Vale in the pecking order.

3) Vale must be loaned out. He isn't even putting the basic levels of performance in if you ask me. Needs a rocket up his arse, I wonder if he think's he's better than he is. 

4) We must sign a fearsome central midfielder. What happening to Belik(?) at Barnsley? He would be a start. Doesn't have to be a fantastic footballer, an Aaron Mokoena equivalent would be perfect. Minimum 6 ft 2.

5) We must sign a replacement for Hirst and Vale that is a viable option immediately.

6) We must sign a deputy right-wing back and a quick (Khadra-type) winger either on loan with the option to buy or permanently. 

Over to you, Gregg...

I dont even think that it is about being cleverer, Cancelo initially moved to left back to cover a lack of that position in City's squad, and is obviously so talented and both footed that as you imply, incomparable.

You mention Belik, do you mean Bielik (on loan at Birmingham for the season) or Helik? (former Barnley centre back, recently moved to Huddersfield)

Neither would be unobtainable but Bielek is more of a technical midfielder anyway. But I dont see why we just need a brute and why it has to be one extreme or the other. We need someone with the ability to help in blocking those spaces that teams often get between our defence and attack and also who can play the game at their pace, ie Cullen.

[AllRoverAsia]

1 minute ago, CheshireRover said:

Nice to see that Dom Hyam has taken yesterday's defeat well enough to piss off to Dubai for some winter sun.

Dubai gets ignored when it comes to social conscience.

Its no better than Qatar.

But for some reason footballers and thousands of others view it as some exotic location and ignore the reality.

Before anyone asks I have been to just about everywhere in the ME.

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, CheshireRover said:

Nice to see that Dom Hyam has taken yesterday's defeat well enough to piss off to Dubai for some winter sun.

I don't understand why footballers use social media in general, what he is doing makes sense, a week rest before a mini pre-season and back again. But surely he realises that it just rubs people up the wrong way.

I remember back in the Shane Duffy days when his "unlucky lads, we go again next week" tweets became a matter of parody, same with Elliott Bennett, better off without it.

[Exiled in Toronto]

8 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I have just endured watching a full replay.

Burnley were above us in every facet of the game and by some distance.

Not the reason we lost so convincingly but I thought the Ref was appalling. How did he not book Barnes at least once?

There is an interesting passage of play from about the 71 minute. It starts with us having  the ball wide left near the half way line. We then go on to create 2 good chances for Burnley over the next couple of minutes, one resulting in their 2nd goal.

Mola is heavily involved in that fiasco as he was in their 3rd.

It's a bit mean to pick Mola out when many others had poor performance but that lad had a nightmare second half.

Vale may as well have stayed on the bench and we could have played with 10 for all the use he was.

That must rank as one of our worst derby performances in my 70 years.

I thought Mola fell apart when we went to a back 4 with him at LB, which he clearly isn’t one. Very surprised at the time Pickering didn’t come on for him. But we were beat at that point anyway.

[Exiled_Rover]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

Again you seem reluctant to blame Tomasson SPECIFICALLY REGARDING YESTERDAYS MATCH. Tomasson will sort it and we are 3rd in the league are your 2 standard lines, without showing any accountability. You also are now implying that players should or indeed were going away from the gameplan, a football team is an embodiment of its manager hence why so much stock is placed into their importance.

Your comment about my view of the academy players is not only incorrect but childish. Garrett was ok v Sunderland although never man of the match worthy, but in general I have not been overly impressed.

Ashley Barnes is a tosser but it was a perfectly valid goal, momentum took him into Kaminski albeit there was certainly some intention to leave one on him, but the ball had long since crossed the line.

Do you not think we were relatively untroubled until Gallagher went off injured? I've just had a long conversation with a close friend who is a Burnley season ticket holder.

His exact comment was "They were a bit too happy to let Burnley have the ball, for me. That said, I thought they were set up really well in the first half".

We went into that game looking for a draw - or at best to nick a win on the break. We nullified them until Gallagher went off and Kompany told his troops to push on as we had nothing upfront after that. 

Garrett is going to be a good one and actually brings that 'aggression' you all seem to be craving. A. Wharton is a much better player, but JDT decided not to include him for whatever reason - I assume with a view on the long term. 

Barnes deserved a yellow card, at best, for that push on Kaminski. Some referees would have sent him off for that. He also deserved a yellow card for his foul on Travis later on. 

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Do you not think we were relatively untroubled until Gallagher went off injured? I've just had a long conversation with a close friend who is a Burnley season ticket holder.

His exact comment was "They were a bit too happy to let Burnley have the ball, for me. That said, I thought they were set up really well in the first half".

We went into that game looking for a draw - or at best to nick a win on the break. We nullified them until Gallagher went off and Kompany told his troops to push on as we had nothing upfront after that. 

Garrett is going to be a good one and actually brings that 'aggression' you all seem to be craving. A. Wharton is a much better player, but JDT decided not to include him for whatever reason - I assume with a view on the long term. 

Barnes deserved a yellow card, at best, for that push on Kaminski. Some referees would have sent him off for that. He also deserved a yellow card for his foul on Travis later on. 

You mention being on the break but we appeared to have no attacking game plan, therefore no matter how long it took, I suspect that first goal was inevitable.

I don't join the calls purely for aggression unless its channelled correctly and coupled with other parts to his game. Garrett is full of aggression, not sure what else. 

[J*B]

23 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Rotherham gave them a game recently and they have dropped points to teams much lower than us. And we beat Watford recently who were in the Premier League last season. 

That’s sort of the point - Rotherham did the things they are good at well and Burnley couldn’t cope with it. We couldn’t even attempt to do the things that we can do well. 

[Exiled_Rover]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You mention being on the break but we appeared to have no attacking game plan, therefore no matter how long it took, I suspect that first goal was inevitable.

I don't join the calls purely for aggression unless its channelled correctly and coupled with other parts to his game. Garrett is full of aggression, not sure what else. 

Well Brereton was brought down illegally when through on goal from a counter attack. He also fired one straight at Muric (I suspect 2021 Brereton slots that home - he's not quite been as clinical this season), also on the break. 

Garrett is going to be a complimentary, Ball Winning Midfielder / Box-to-Box Midfielder - someone that can do the neat and tidy stuff, put in a tackle and get about the pitch. He's not going to dictate play like Wharton does. Hence he's another in the mould of Travis - hopefully with a better range of passing and a harder tackle (which he has so far).

[AllRoverAsia]

1 minute ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Well Brereton was brought down illegally when through on goal from a counter attack. He also fired one straight at Muric (I suspect 2021 Brereton slots that home - he's not quite been as clinical this season), also on the break. 

Garrett is going to be a complimentary, Ball Winning Midfielder / Box-to-Box Midfielder - someone that can do the neat and tidy stuff, put in a tackle and get about the pitch. He's not going to dictate play like Wharton does. Hence he's another in the mould of Travis - hopefully with a better range of passing and a harder tackle (which he has so far).

I agree with all of that 

Garrett should develop into a decent box to box midfielder. Good first touch, decent pass and if his aggression, which I like, can be channelled correctly that will stop him just being Travis Mk2. Garrett certainly has much more natural mobility than Travis.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Some observations I’ve had for a while that were fully on show yesterday:

- When Hedges isn’t supporting the front two, we create very little. He’s the key for me.

- The more Diaz stays rooted to the left touchline, the worse we do as he’s just a spectator waiting for “the” ball. The combination of these first two points means inevitable defeat IMO. 

- I love Ayala coming on to defend a lead like John Wayne in the Alamo, I hate him starting and having to think and pass.

- I still believe JDT is conducting a prolonged public audition of the squad, perhaps to make a case to the owners for major squad turnover and spending in the summer. I think that’s why he is persisting in his way of playing but with players who can’t play it, rather than changing tactics to what they can play (answers on a postcard as to what that might be). 

[Exiled in Toronto]

1 minute ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I agree with all of that 

Garrett should develop into a decent box to box midfielder. Good first touch, decent pass and if his aggression, which I like, can be channelled correctly that will stop him just being Travis Mk2. Garrett certainly has much more natural mobility than Travis.

And he did create our one chance through determination, heads up vision and good delivery. Travis wouldn’t have.

[bigbrandjohn]

I think the thing missing for me with JDT is any humility in all of this. Maybe it is cultural, who knows. The best leaders take accountability when things go wrong. 
 

Steve Cooper of Forest has owned the club’s position. He has explained the challenges but recognizes where the buck ends. 
 

It takes the wind out of the sails of the issue and it calms the storm. At the moment the gusts of dissatisfaction are swirling around players, formation, tactics, commitment and all stations south. 
 
Own it, put a stick in it, and move on to kinder waters. 

[K-Hod]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I agree with @rog of the rovers that we need to keep some perspective and we need to look at the season so far in a 21 games block. I think we have overachieved this season and no way did I think we would be 3rd in the league after 21 games and going into the world cup break. I think Jon Dahl Tomasson has been a breath of fresh air since his appointment, He understand the club and wants to take this club back to the PL and keep us there and not be yo-yo club like some other clubs have been. He has been very good with bringing young players through. He is clearly happy with the coaching staff he has here despite what people think on here. His and Gregg Broughton appointments is a new era for the club, and they have explained what the plan is and how they will implement the plan. I think people having a go for JDT for not understanding the importance of the game or he needs to be sack or replace is unwarranted and unnecessary in my opinion.  

I am not angry or mad about yesterday performance (I am disappointed but that's it). I am proud and passionate Rovers fan and I have some great memories from supporting this great club over the last 32 years and those memories will always been there and they will always outweigh days like yesterday.  

 

I would say that defensive wise in the first half we were good and limited them to 2 chances all first half. In the attacking sense we were poor apart from one moment that Brittain were he had simple ball through to Gallagher who would have been one on one with keeper, and I think he would score. 

Well, some people like myself haven't taken this one game in isolation but have taken the spell of 21 games together as I think we should do. Yes I know and fully aware of how important this rivalry before someone says I don't understand it. 

Those days have gone, and football has moved on now from these types of players. 

It was foul anywhere on the pitch sadly the ref bottled like a number of other decisions yesterday. 

If he understood the club, he’d have ensured the players showed some heart, fight and desire yesterday.

He didn’t though, instead, we played like it was just another game. Unacceptable.

[Ossydave]

I've not even remotely calmed down yet after that absolute shambles.

JDT must have been on the piss on Saturday, so many baffling decisions. He now has a big job winning back respect from us fans. I couldn't give a shit that we're 3rd quite frankly, I'd be literally amazed if we finish top 6.

If I was a Wharton I'd be frigging distraught not starting yesterday.

The only real positive was to my knowledge it passed off without many major incidents. A few coach windows went through but that's all I saw.

Does anyone know if the chap that collapsed is ok? One of our fans was screaming at a policeman to get help and he didn't seem to give a shit, absolute disgrace.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Ossydave

[Darrenbot]

1 hour ago, J*B said:

It's the day after but not much has changed.

I still think Mola starting off the back of one good game against West Ham was a huge error of judgement, whether he is fast or not. I suspect the beating he took will end his career here, unlikely to recover from that.

I still think Garrett starting in central midfield was a huge error of judgement. He's nowhere near ready for that sort of game.

I still think Morton playing in the Szmodics role was disastrous and ultimately cost us the game. Neither Travis or Garrett could hold on to the ball and that played right into their strong central midfields hands.

I still think inverted fullbacks is far too clever for the Championship. I can see the logic when you have Kyle Walker and Cancelo, but not where we are. 

I still think Hedges is absolutely wasted at left wing back. 

I still think Pickering was very hard done to. 

I still think playing out from the back doesn't suit any of our central defenders apart from Wharton.

I still think not having a reasonable option off the bench when Gallagher got injured changed the game. Hirst clearly isn't trusted and Vale has no future here. 

 

Despite a decent set of results in the first half of the season, I'm now looking down at the table rather than up for after the World Cup. We're yet to get any sort of result after conceding first. We're still making the same mistakes we where at the start of the season. We're only 5 points above 7th place. I suspect a classic Mowbray-style breakdown in the New Year, unless we can address all of the below issues in January.

1) Dack has to go. I love him, but if he isn't trusted ahead of Vale then his time here is done and its best for all parties we remember the memories and wish him well. 

2) Hirst must be returned to Leicester. There's perhaps a player in there best of the performances for Pompy, but as yet we haven't seen anything in him and he's being the awful Vale in the pecking order.

3) Vale must be loaned out. He isn't even putting the basic levels of performance in if you ask me. Needs a rocket up his arse, I wonder if he think's he's better than he is. 

4) We must sign a fearsome central midfielder. What happening to Belik(?) at Barnsley? He would be a start. Doesn't have to be a fantastic footballer, an Aaron Mokoena equivalent would be perfect. Minimum 6 ft 2.

5) We must sign a replacement for Hirst and Vale that is a viable option immediately.

6) We must sign a deputy right-wing back and a quick (Khadra-type) winger either on loan with the option to buy or permanently. 

Over to you, Gregg...

If we come out of Jan without an improvement on Hirst and Vale as backup forwards then Broughton should be sacked on Feb 1st

[den]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

Does anybody think that Burnley weren't hugely better than us in every outfield position? That was the level we were at, second best everywhere including the technical areas. They were quicker, more aggressive, better on the ball, better off the ball, passed better with purpose and had far more intensity. We had our usual pedantic, too many touches style.

All Burnley had to do was turn up Arbitro. Standard championship fare was more than enough to embarrass us. It embarrassed me, I hope it embarrassed absolutely everyone at the club as well.

Edited November 14, 2022 by den

[Silas]

17 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

To hear JDT talking about the pace of Mola being a reason he started is maddening. We were so deep there was no space for anyone to run into.

Think there was a big concern that someone might break away into the 4.5 metres of pitch behind our back line. 

[den]

Playing out from the back has to be applauded. The absolute key to it though is not to get caught on the ball. It’s a simple philosophy yet we get caught on the ball time and time again.

WHY?

[sympatheticclaret]

19 hours ago, J*B said:

They’ve both been here a while and are two very valued users. Exactly what this site should be, to be honest. I’d rather they hadn’t, but I hope they’re having a good day. Would love to buy them a drink one day. 

That's kind of you, J*B .... don't know if longsiders is local but I'd enjoy that !

Blackburn Rugby Club might be an option on a Saturday afternoon ... 

[Hasta]

58 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

1) The players have to take some responsibly for the decisions to play out from the back cos sometimes yesterday Kaminski didn't, so maybe the questions that need to be asked to the players is why the players decided to play out when they did. That will be done today by JDT and the players in a team meeting over the game. 

It's still a foul for me whether the ball is in the net or not. It was clearly push that didn't need to happen. 

 

The players take no responsibility as they are under instruction not to hoof it. I will tell you now when they are under press they would rather boot the ball long than get caught in possession or give it away. We only started doing this once JDT rocked up. Under any normal manager if we gave the ball away along the back line as often as we did yesterday you get dropped. With JDT it is almost like if you don't play that way and clear it too often you will lose your place as 'that's not how he wants to do it". 

If JDT had said at half time "playing out from the bak is not working. Don't rush your goal kicks and start playing it longer and picking up the second balls" then it would have stopped. Why didn't he? Stubborn.

2) As for the goal, the ref might have been entitled to have had a word or even booked him, but once the ball crosses the line it's a goal. Barnes could have picked Kaminsky up and body-slammed him after the ball crosses the line, but it's still a perfectly good goal.

 

 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Just five arrests,probably the lowest ever for a Derby game in the UK?...puts matters into perspective after all the hype.

24 hrs on and Im still at a loss to explain our sides no show.

Edited November 14, 2022 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Ossydave]

Something else that pissed me off yesterday was nobody seemed to press their keeper at all, they'd clearly been told not to? WHY? He's shite, should also have been troubling him with crosses too but our few corners were appalling!

[Hasta]

51 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Do you not think we were relatively untroubled until Gallagher went off injured? I've just had a long conversation with a close friend who is a Burnley season ticket holder.

His exact comment was "They were a bit too happy to let Burnley have the ball, for me. That said, I thought they were set up really well in the first half".

We went into that game looking for a draw - or at best to nick a win on the break. We nullified them until Gallagher went off and Kompany told his troops to push on as we had nothing upfront after that. 

 

Well they had the two headers and there Barnes chance that went into the side netting. Plus they had all of the play in our half and were making us defend. I'd hardly say untroubled. The general consensus at half time was change things or it was only a matter of time before they scored. And that was correct.

And when they scored we didn't change a thing other than personnel. We carried on with the same side-ways passing at the back and kept giving the ball away. 

I don't get why we are set up to just defend, defend, defend anyway. As I said, every team which has gone to Burnley this year has managed significantly more goal attempts than we did, including Shrewsbury and Lincoln. 

 

[tomphil]

6 minutes ago, den said:

Playing out from the back has to be applauded. The absolute key to it though is not to get caught on the ball. It’s a simple philosophy yet we get caught on the ball time and time again.

WHY?

Because yesterday and numerous times this season they don't play out from the back they play across their own 6 yard box, invite the opposition to close us down then pass to someone under pressure stood on the touchline who then loses it.

It's a fooking shameless shambles of a tactic that achieves nothing except invite trouble.

When the tv commentators are saying why ?  The opposition fans are saying why ?  And neutrals watching on telly say why ? 

You know something is up it isn't just us picking holes in it and us being 3rd in the league, before anyone parrots up, is more to do with being defensively resolute when backs to the wall and BBD than anything else.

[Hasta]

6 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Just five arrests,probably the lowest ever for a Derby game in the UK?

Puts matters into perspective after all the hype.

I don't know about those that made their own way there, but again the coach convoy situation was well planned and left little chance for any confrontation. With no trains running, most people who didn't go on the coach will have drove, and it would have just been small groups going to and from the ground. 

If Burnley have 5000 tickets for the return game, and they move to and from the railway stations in their 100's,  I suspect it will be a bit more problematic.