v Wigan Athletic (h) - 6/2/23

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

You’re watching a different player to most people

Surely the logical explanation is that we're all watching the same player and seeing different things? As is the manager.

[Guest]

I find it funny that the suggestion is JDT see's Jack Vale as shit but plays him anyway. Obviously he see's something in him.

Vale's role in the team isn't really something we're privy to. If the manager keeps playing him, he's definitely happy with what he's doing. Within the system, as far as we know, he could be operating in the exact way the manager is asking him to. In fact, you'd have to bet 2p that he IS doing that, otherwise he'd be dropped. As for Dack, he gets chances from his late arrival into the box, but my view is that Vale's movement creates the space for those opportunities. I think the subtly of his game is perhaps being lost on certain viewers.

I accept people wanting more goals from Vale, but maybe let's see what he can do when he's actually given the right type of opportunities in front of goal. It's true that you create your own chances, but in this system I don't think the 9 has much of a place to. If he drops in too deep to pick up the ball people slag him off anyway! He's a clinical finisher and if you want goals out of him, get the ball into him in the box. The ball gravitates to Dack because everyone gets their head up and tries to find him, he's the experienced man who the other players trust. 

Drop Vale, that's fine, play Sam Gallagher. I don't think he's any better. I've never once seen someone argue that Vale is the second coming of Jesus Christ, I think some people just recognise that he is the best we have. He links play better than Sam Gallagher and I truly believe he is a better finisher. Regardless of who starts, I think we can do better. But that's something I'm confident they'll address next window.

[Exiled_Rover]

11 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

It is a must win tomorrow for me to end a poor couple of months and try and regain some form. Wigan are shocking, we are at home v bottom of the league. If things start badly on the back of recent performances and off the field woes, the crowd could easily become disgruntled. It's on the players and the manager to get a good response tomorrow.

We won 2, drew 2 and lost 1 in January - that's not a bad month.

[Exiled_Rover]

10 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I find it funny that the suggestion is JDT see's Jack Vale as shit but plays him anyway. Obviously he see's something in him.

Vale's role in the team isn't really something we're privy to. If the manager keeps playing him, he's definitely happy with what he's doing. Within the system, as far as we know, he could be operating in the exact way the manager is asking him to. In fact, you'd have to bet 2p that he IS doing that, otherwise he'd be dropped. As for Dack, he gets chances from his late arrival into the box, but my view is that Vale's movement creates the space for those opportunities. I think the subtly of his game is perhaps being lost on certain viewers.

I accept people wanting more goals from Vale, but maybe let's see what he can do when he's actually given the right type of opportunities in front of goal. It's true that you create your own chances, but in this system I don't think the 9 has much of a place to. If he drops in too deep to pick up the ball people slag him off anyway! He's a clinical finisher and if you want goals out of him, get the ball into him in the box. The ball gravitates to Dack because everyone gets their head up and tries to find him, he's the experienced man who the other players trust. 

Drop Vale, that's fine, play Sam Gallagher. I don't think he's any better. I've never once seen someone argue that Vale is the second coming of Jesus Christ, I think some people just recognise that he is the best we have. He links play better than Sam Gallagher and I truly believe he is a better finisher. Regardless of who starts, I think we can do better. But that's something I'm confident they'll address next window.

I'm a better finisher than Gallagher, so that's not really a compliment.

I think you're right, we can't appreciate the subtly of his game - we're much more used to crudely wanting players to y'know, run around a bit and not get brushed off the ball in every challenge. 

[Gav]

38 minutes ago, Hasta said:

If he’s mid table championship Danny Graham must have been champions league.

Different players, different formations, different supply.

Thats why you don’t work in football Hasta and managers that keep in picking him do.

[Hasta]

26 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I find it funny that the suggestion is JDT see's Jack Vale as shit but plays him anyway. Obviously he see's something in him.

He has only started back to back league games once this season, and that’s the last two games once George Hirst has left.  It’s hardly like JDT is starting him week in week out. 
 

The reason JDT can’t stick with either Gally or Vale, and why we desperately pursued a striker in January is because neither have been good enough to hold the spot down

Edited February 5, 2023 by Hasta

[Hasta]

4 minutes ago, Gav said:

Different players, different formations, different supply.

Thats why you don’t work in football Hasta and managers that keep in picking him do.

So because I think Danny Graham was significantly better than Sam Gallagher that’s why I don’t work in football? 
 

Yeah all right Gav.

 

[Miller11]

19 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I find it funny that the suggestion is JDT see's Jack Vale as shit but plays him anyway. Obviously he see's something in him.

Vale's role in the team isn't really something we're privy to. If the manager keeps playing him, he's definitely happy with what he's doing. Within the system, as far as we know, he could be operating in the exact way the manager is asking him to. In fact, you'd have to bet 2p that he IS doing that, otherwise he'd be dropped. As for Dack, he gets chances from his late arrival into the box, but my view is that Vale's movement creates the space for those opportunities. I think the subtly of his game is perhaps being lost on certain viewers.

I accept people wanting more goals from Vale, but maybe let's see what he can do when he's actually given the right type of opportunities in front of goal. It's true that you create your own chances, but in this system I don't think the 9 has much of a place to. If he drops in too deep to pick up the ball people slag him off anyway! He's a clinical finisher and if you want goals out of him, get the ball into him in the box. The ball gravitates to Dack because everyone gets their head up and tries to find him, he's the experienced man who the other players trust. 

Drop Vale, that's fine, play Sam Gallagher. I don't think he's any better. I've never once seen someone argue that Vale is the second coming of Jesus Christ, I think some people just recognise that he is the best we have. He links play better than Sam Gallagher and I truly believe he is a better finisher. Regardless of who starts, I think we can do better. But that's something I'm confident they'll address next window.

Some fair points here, particularly the question about what Vale is being asked/instructed to do. If he’s been asked to play as a traditional centre forward he’s failing, but I doubt he is somehow.

I personally can’t see him ever being close to prolific, he doesn’t seem to take up good goal scoring positions instinctively. I’ll have to take your word on his finishing ability, because as you rightly point out he doesn’t seem to get many clear cut chances in a game. I’d actually put that down to our style of play - which I absolutely hate. I think most strikers would struggle.

I’m hoping Sorba Thomas is pretty much the second coming and he can transform us into a team that actually puts the ball in the opposition box occasionally.

[Gav]

1 minute ago, Hasta said:

So because I think Danny Graham was significantly better than Sam Gallagher that’s why I don’t work in football? 

 

Nice swerve, Duff would have been proud of that one. 

[Hasta]

Just now, Gav said:

Nice swerve, Duff would have been proud of that one. 

I really don’t know what you mean.

Danny Graham was a good championship striker when he was at rovers but was significantly better than Gallagher in my eyes.

Therefore if you think Gallagher is average championship quality then Graham must be levels above, hence champions league quality.

Why does that opinion, which I’m guessing most people agree with entirely, and even you probably agree with somewhat, mean that’s why I clearly don’t work in football?

 

 

[roversfan99]

29 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I find it funny that the suggestion is JDT see's Jack Vale as shit but plays him anyway. Obviously he see's something in him.

Vale's role in the team isn't really something we're privy to. If the manager keeps playing him, he's definitely happy with what he's doing. Within the system, as far as we know, he could be operating in the exact way the manager is asking him to. In fact, you'd have to bet 2p that he IS doing that, otherwise he'd be dropped. As for Dack, he gets chances from his late arrival into the box, but my view is that Vale's movement creates the space for those opportunities. I think the subtly of his game is perhaps being lost on certain viewers.

I accept people wanting more goals from Vale, but maybe let's see what he can do when he's actually given the right type of opportunities in front of goal. It's true that you create your own chances, but in this system I don't think the 9 has much of a place to. If he drops in too deep to pick up the ball people slag him off anyway! He's a clinical finisher and if you want goals out of him, get the ball into him in the box. The ball gravitates to Dack because everyone gets their head up and tries to find him, he's the experienced man who the other players trust. 

Drop Vale, that's fine, play Sam Gallagher. I don't think he's any better. I've never once seen someone argue that Vale is the second coming of Jesus Christ, I think some people just recognise that he is the best we have. He links play better than Sam Gallagher and I truly believe he is a better finisher. Regardless of who starts, I think we can do better. But that's something I'm confident they'll address next window.

I don't see why the theory has to be that Vale is doing things that us mere plebs cannot fathom or understand.

Sam Gallagher is very average but he is far better than Jack Vale. He is not prolific but he will always score close to 10 goals, sometimes from wide which is pretty underwhelming still but is incomparable to someone with 1 league goal in his career at this stage. Vale doesn't link play at all, he doesn't put himself about, if the ball comes off the ground he never ever wins headers and  the ball tends to bounce off him. It often does with Gallagher but defenders would take a game against Vale over Gallagher any day. Vale even with such poor options is not the best we have.

There is little onus on you for Vale getting into goalscoring positions which is half of the battle of "creating chances." The onus is not just on the players around Vale to create him chances, his movement is poor. He can't hide behind the "system" as a central striker who has not shown signs of creating chances for himself with clever movement.

Dack has also scored 4 goals this season, you point to the "subtlety" of Vale's movement as a reason for that. Even if we accept Vale's movement as a big reason for the goal at Bristol City, and that amble to the side is becoming as infamous as Myles Anderson's tackle! For the other 3 goals, Vale wasn't on the pitch!

I don't see where the confidence comes from that it will be addressed next window. Broughton has had 2 in which he signed Hirst as "first choice" in one and nobody in the second.

[Sparks Rover]

45 minutes ago, JoeH said:

 I think the subtly of his game is perhaps being lost on certain viewers.

I agree, all those peasants don't understand do they Joe? 🤷‍♂️  He waited until the EFL cup to get his only assist of the season...when no fucker was there....Undercover Jack ....👎 shite

[Gav]

40 minutes ago, Gav said:

Different players, different formations, different supply.

Thats why you don’t work in football Hasta and managers that keep in picking him do.

 

27 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I really don’t know what you mean.

Its only a few posts away Hasta.

Why do managers keep picking Gallagher? That was the main point being made.

[rigger]

54 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I'm a better finisher than Gallagher, so that's not really a compliment.

I think you're right, we can't appreciate the subtly of his game - we're much more used to crudely wanting players to y'know, run around a bit and not get brushed off the ball in every challenge. 

I doubt that.

[Hasta]

4 minutes ago, Gav said:

Why do managers keep picking Gallagher? That was the main point being made.

Mowbray because he spent £5mill so would have looked a dick if he hadn't.

JDT because he's no other decent options yet, but he is at least alternating him with Vale and Hirst. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

If you rolled Vale and Gallagher together you wouldn’t have a Danny Graham.

[WacoRover]

All this sniping & griping will end… IF Rovers are victorious tomorrow.

if not, I don’t think I will be checking the board on Tuesday😬

[Inferi]

57 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I find it funny that the suggestion is JDT see's Jack Vale as shit but plays him anyway. Obviously he see's something in him.

Vale's role in the team isn't really something we're privy to. If the manager keeps playing him, he's definitely happy with what he's doing. Within the system, as far as we know, he could be operating in the exact way the manager is asking him to. In fact, you'd have to bet 2p that he IS doing that, otherwise he'd be dropped. As for Dack, he gets chances from his late arrival into the box, but my view is that Vale's movement creates the space for those opportunities. I think the subtly of his game is perhaps being lost on certain viewers.

I accept people wanting more goals from Vale, but maybe let's see what he can do when he's actually given the right type of opportunities in front of goal. It's true that you create your own chances, but in this system I don't think the 9 has much of a place to. If he drops in too deep to pick up the ball people slag him off anyway! He's a clinical finisher and if you want goals out of him, get the ball into him in the box. The ball gravitates to Dack because everyone gets their head up and tries to find him, he's the experienced man who the other players trust. 

Drop Vale, that's fine, play Sam Gallagher. I don't think he's any better. I've never once seen someone argue that Vale is the second coming of Jesus Christ, I think some people just recognise that he is the best we have. He links play better than Sam Gallagher and I truly believe he is a better finisher. Regardless of who starts, I think we can do better. But that's something I'm confident they'll address next window.

Vale doesn't have enough skill to make up for his laziness. He looks like he's way out of his depth. I don't rate Gallagher but he is clearly a better player. Maybe JDT picks Vale sometimes because he tries to increase his value. 

[Gav]

16 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Mowbray because he spent £5mill so would have looked a dick if he hadn't.

He bought Diaz for £7m and never played him?

So that’s Premiership Adam Armstrong and La Liga bound Diaz, yet Gallagher is picked week in week out?

Maybe the experts know something we don’t Hasta?

Edited February 5, 2023 by Gav

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, den said:

He isn’t at the start of his career. He’s 22 next month. 

Well my point was he is at the start of Championship career and his first full season at this level

2 hours ago, Butty said:

Vale wouldn’t score goals in the conference, simple as that. 

Well, we have to agree on disagree on Vale

2 hours ago, booth said:

You changed it about Hirst once the club decided he wasn't good enough.

When the club moves Vale on you'll change it then as well.

For a club that's just publicly admitted to a disasterous error, you have a lot of faith in them.

The truth is that the club is winging it with what they've got. There's no plan to using Vale, it's nothing to do with ability, we don't have much in the way of options. He'll be on his way when the club luck out with someone better.

Did I change my opinion on Hirst cos I don't think I did. Maybe my memory is wrong tho

Yes I still have faith in GB, JDT and the recruitment staff. 

 

[Miller11]

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Did I change my opinion on Hirst cos I don't think I did. Maybe my memory is wrong tho

 

Presumably you think we shouldn’t have sent him back and he should still be playing games for us then? If you haven’t changed your opinion?

[BlackburnEnd75]

Lot of debate whether Vale can ever make the grade here and that's a fair conversation. However what isn't in debate is he isn't good enough for what we need right now. Neither is Gally.

For me the one option we haven't tried is Brereton-Diaz through the middle. He does it for Chile at times, he's got a lot of the attributes to do it, he's leaving anyway so doesn't particularly matter if he'd rather play on the left, allows us to get Thomas into the team. 

That's what I'd do anyway

[roversfan99]

If Brereton was in form off the left then I would not move him but he is not effective from the left in a 4231 like he was in the formation last winter because whilst he played from the left he was much more central and further forward. It then gives us the options of Thomas, Dolan and Hedges competing for the wide roles either side of our main 2 goal threats. Playing Vale is like having 10 players.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

I doubt that.

I dunno just watch him regularly in the pre match warm up shooting drills, certain defenders hit the target more often.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by tomphil

[simongarnerisgod]

3 hours ago, Butty said:

Vale wouldn’t score goals in the conference, simple as that

he was at halifax and rochdale  and indeed he did`nt score any goals and was sent back to us