Venky’s, HMRC…The Plot Thickens ?

[Herbie6590]

48 minutes ago, BigUts said:

Am I in cloud cuckoo land, or did we lend the thick end of 10m from a random company based in somebody's house a few months ago?

Page 35 in this thread

[RoversClitheroe]

10 minutes ago, StubbsUK said:

Thank you, as the tag line says "We're more than just a forum".

The best forum

[BigUts]

12 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Page 35 in this thread

But, but the only money we owe are to the Raos themselves.

We really are going to the wall here. It's a matter of when and not if, isn't it.

Edited January 16 by BigUts
Spelling

[Mattyblue]

Going to Indian courts every three months to pay the bills, threatened with winding up orders, loans from dubious 'companies' secured on Brockhall all perfectly normal according to a few on here - nothing to see here.

[phili]

9 minutes ago, BigUts said:

But, but the only money we owe are to the Raos themselves.

We really are going to the wall here. It's a matter of when and not if, isn't it.

It makes it more difficult especially if we enter administration as Venky's could have you over a barrel with the training ground.

[BigUts]

Maybe there needs to be a summation of the facts and made in to an image and get it plastered everywhere. Hopefully then it'll focus people's minds

[glen9mullan]

2 hours ago, BigUts said:

Am I in cloud cuckoo land, or did we lend the thick end of 10m from a random company based in somebody's house a few months ago?

The loons borrowed money where the liability is theirs using parent guarantees. The repayments are their responsibility and SW stated this loan won't appear in club accounts. He was also confident that this money loan would be paid off within months and the number was not that vast .

It was a way of them putting money in from other sources other than India. 

He added that the source of the loan was from a long standing business associate of the v's who they utilise for other endeavours.

It was in minutes I posted in meeting with Swag in December 

Edited January 16 by glen9mullan

[BigUts]

9 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

The loons borrowed money where the liability is theirs using personal guarantees. The repayments are their responsibility and SW stated this loan won't appear in club accounts. He was also confident that this money loan would be paid off within months and the number was not that vast .

It was a way of them putting money in from other sources other than India. 

He added that the source of the loan was from a long standing business associate of the v's who they utilise for other endeavours.

It was in minutes I posted in meeting with Swag in December 

But isn't it secured on the training ground? (Which I know technically isn't 'ours')

It still stinks and to me it's still a worry.

[Ricky]

12 hours ago, J*B said:

Six hours later I invite anyone to answer this 

Nobody is buying us with over £100m of debt. I’m pretty sure not a single one of those you mentioned was sold with those debt levels so the only option (as you mentioned) is administration and then the hope someone decides to buy us.

There’s a couple of teams on there that would clearly be more attractive to an investor, I’m thinking Birmingham and Sunderland mainly, due to the large catchment and fan base. Sunderland could get 40k attending quite easily if they were in the top flight. Our cap is probably 20-25k. That’s going to be something that an investor will look at.

Some of the others were bought when they were in the lower leagues at a lower cost.

I can only really see a future of administration and then a buy out. It would be great if a rich owner came in but as we’ve seen, we already have one of those and it’s not been the answer. A rich owner can still only invest so much due to ffp.

I don’t know the answer but it’s certainly a worrying time.

[J*B]

8 minutes ago, Ricky said:

Nobody is buying us with over £100m of debt. I’m pretty sure not a single one of those you mentioned was sold with those debt levels so the only option (as you mentioned) is administration and then the hope someone decides to buy us.

There’s a couple of teams on there that would clearly be more attractive to an investor, I’m thinking Birmingham and Sunderland mainly, due to the large catchment and fan base. Sunderland could get 40k attending quite easily if they were in the top flight. Our cap is probably 20-25k. That’s going to be something that an investor will look at.

Some of the others were bought when they were in the lower leagues at a lower cost.

I can only really see a future of administration and then a buy out. It would be great if a rich owner came in but as we’ve seen, we already have one of those and it’s not been the answer. A rich owner can still only invest so much due to ffp.

I don’t know the answer but it’s certainly a worrying time.

The debt comment is an interesting one - for me, no buyer is going to pay for debt to the owners due to poor decision making. It’s different if the debt is - let’s say - 100M to a construction company or a bank for a new state of the art stadium or training facilities which is tangible. 

If we take this back to real life, if my house is worth £100,000 and I do a 50,000 extension on the back then get it revalued and it’s valued at £120,000, who’s responsible for that 30K? I either accept that I’ve spent money which I won’t get a return on and sell for 120K, or keep hold of the house.

But if our owners think they’re going to get anything near the value of their debt back they’re sadly mistaken. 

[Mercer]

14 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

The loons borrowed money where the liability is theirs using personal guarantees. The repayments are their responsibility and SW stated this loan won't appear in club accounts. He was also confident that this money loan would be paid off within months and the number was not that vast .

It was a way of them putting money in from other sources other than India. 

He added that the source of the loan was from a long standing business associate of the v's who they utilise for other endeavours.

It was in minutes I posted in meeting with Swag in December 

Think some clarity needed here.

If personal guarantees are in place then the borrowing has been undertaken by a company  - presumably either The Blackburn Rovers Football and Athletic Club (despite what Waggott told you) or Venky's London Limited.  No doubt it will be a belt and braces job in terms of security - debenture, cross company guarantees and personal guarantees.

[Silas]

20 minutes ago, Ricky said:

Nobody is buying us with over £100m of debt. I’m pretty sure not a single one of those you mentioned was sold with those debt levels....

I thought that too when looking at the list, but at least one in Derby seems pretty similar to us:

"Debts spiralled north of £180 million, although two-thirds of that was to former owner Morris. Almost £30 million was owed to the tax man, with a further £20 million owed to US investment firm MSD Holdings via various loans secured against the stadium. Another £10 million was outstanding to football creditors."

https://theathletic.com/3397152/2022/07/03/derby-county-saved-clowes/

I don't know the ins and outs of how Derby then dealt with situation, even after skim reading the article. 

Did Morris end up writing off a lot of his debt? 

I can see the new owners agreed to pay 25p on every £1 owed to unsecured creditors. 

There's generally some way out of these financial messes if people put their minds to it. 

[glen9mullan]

9 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Think some clarity needed here.

If personal guarantees are in place then the borrowing has been undertaken by a company  - presumably either The Blackburn Rovers Football and Athletic Club (despite what Waggott told you) or Venky's London Limited.  No doubt it will be a belt and braces job in terms of security - debenture, cross company guarantees and personal guarantees.

Just copied what we recorded below,  might be worth additional questions posing by FF or RT

 

As promised Mark and I met with the CEO and this is a brief run down of discussions.

 

1. Bridging loan - Taken out by Venkys against the training ground, using a long standing relationship with UK based businessman. The plan is this to be short term and they intend clearing it as soon as there is a relaxing of funds from India. They had to put up Parent company guarantees, but the liability of the loan remains with Venkys and won't appear as in the club accounts. The funds were made available to aid cash flow and ensure priority bills were paid.

2. Cash flow - although challenging the club has paid all priority bills, or renegotiated terms during the period up until and including the cash injection earlier this month, this includes all bonuses. No wages or bonuses have been deferred by anyone at the club.

3. Cash injection - the club are relieved with the 11 million or so which had been sanctioned by the Indian courts. Its a less than ideal situation as substantiation must be provided with each application and only bills, operating costs will be sanctioned. The money cannot be diverted to transfer funds and will be auditable on future applications. This money was to see the club until December 2023.

4. What's the plan for funds for the rest of the season? The club has once again put together a list of bills which will need to be paid, this will again go to the courts for authority to pay, the club are confident this will also be sanctioned.

5. Does that mean no transfer funds? If there is not a relaxation in India, then funds will need to be generated via player trading

6. Venkys sponsorship - Club taken 3 years payment of the 5 year deal in advance to cover cash flow.

7. DOF/CEO model, who decided this? This was Venkys Idea after seeing other clubs use this approach.

8. Have you taken paycut to fund a second person doing something you previously did on your own?  No

9. We have had a good record previous to a DOF of buying players with a good sell on value, is it fair to say that most of our playing assets are now from the academy, who have a genuine decent value? CEO acknowledged that our assets are from within rather than those purchased. It was noted that Hyam, Smodzics etc were scouted prior to the new Management set up and have been a success in terms of purchase price, but also the previous recruitment team.

10. Are you on a rolling contract/fixed contract? Notice period from either side required to terminate.

11. Season tickets - Club recommended a much lower price to India, in particular on the early bird,  however this was not acceptable and they set a higher opening early bird offer. It was acknowledged that the early bird offer didn't help low income families with the short duration and the club needs to learn from this. It was also acknowledged that the price was a stumbling block and something they will be looking at. However a large drop in price would have much wider implications if the club needed to later increase these year upon year, with the rises being much steeper for the club to remain viable in terms of minimum revenue required to operate within FFP.

12. Shirt launch - How do we launch a shirt and sell out within 2 hours?  The club ordered 15000 shirts, and he feels the launch was great success, obviously we need to sell all stock as 15000 was big commitment, however the limited opening batch was out of the clubs control with all shirts ordered in good time. The lack of shirts was not related to the clubs funding issues.

13. Closing the Blackburn End - the club received a number of complaints and hindsight is a wonderful thing. With cash flow a major issue at this time, the club attempted to try and limit match day costs. As CEO, he needed to look through a wider lense if funds were not forthcoming.  Being responsible for the lights being able to be turned on was the priority during a challenging period and the decision was not taken lightly.

14. Shaw will be remembered for a fax machine, and you for a coach you didn't buy but said you did? After a debate it was agreed the coach was a lease and we asked him to admit saying otherwise has become a standing joke with JDT. He stated they wanted to put some positive PR out as the coach is state of the art. We told him, that the demographic he is preaching to, some can't afford a holiday or the basics and it was a poor effort to appease the fans.

15. We asked what he feels is his achievements to date as CEO? He said stabilising the Club during the bad press. We challenged had he stabled the club or have those more vocal given him time and patience to rebuild? We pointed out crowd's have continued to dwindle,  and season ticket holder retention should be one of his main priorities l. It's no good selling 800 new season ticket holders, if you are losing a 1000 existing ones. We pointed out that they have not left their offices, gone out to the masses in and around the area, surrounding areas , put pop-ups up or to date given supporters a reason to return.

16. Is there any redundancies planned as part of the cut-backs? Not at this time, some have left employment for other reasons and these won't be replaced.

17. Supporter consultation meetings, why have they ceased , we do not believe meeting the FF in isolation instead of an open forum ticks the leagues mandate following consultation with the league ? He disputed this, but was happy to be corrected if that's the case. They stopped because of covid, but would be open to them restarting instead of multiple meetings, if there is genuine interest from supporters to attend a more open forum.

18. New Indian Based Commercial Director - He is cc'd on emails as a director however to date, has not got involved with Ewood and is not on the pay role.  The other Indian based directors are also not paid by Rovers, though Gupta does attend meetings and in particular surrounding finance. He plays a more active role, than is forseen with this new appointment which is more of a tick box exercise.

19. JDT contract - it is a 3 year deal with no talks of a new contract planned at this stage, he is ambitious. We asked why JDT thinks he was sold a pup?  He reiterated that its the same job as its always been with no pressure on league position. Its always been about developing and trading regardless of financial restrictions this summer.

20. Did we adopt quantity over quality this summer ? It was acknowledged that not all signings have worked out yet, either this season or last. We've had to take more chances , but some players take longer than others to settle.

21. Have the EFL or football league asked questions or taken closer look at Rovers since the investigations India?  He stated he talks weekly with both parties and at no point had their been any discussions or contact either formally or informally. The club are completely compliant.

22. Given the fans found out the bad news from the press, as it appears he does, is he aware of any more bombshells from India, that have yet to hit print? He said he was not aware of anything and Mr Desai has repeatedly reiterated the owners commitment to providing funds.

23. When does he think we wil be clear, so funds can be provided normally? He does not know beyond the short term facility in place.  He is confident that although substantiation is required to get funds signed off, that there should be no blockers to prevent these funds being transferred. He again reiterated the owners long term commitment.

24. Have they considered partnering with a credit union or endorsing one to offer supporters a facility to save for season tickets, given not all appear yo even pass the strict finance criteria by the clubs credit provider? He was interested on how this could work and would be open to looking at various options to aid affordability over a period of time, providing the club were not responsible/liable for the savings.

25. Large agent fees - We asked why the agent fees were so big? He stated some are historical and on long payment terms, so this is not just recent spend, it's cumulative of a number of seasons.

26. Loan from league during covid - Its been a bit of a noose but the final repayment will be made in January.

Above is just brief and I will happily have a chat off line with anyone who wants me to elaborate 

[tomphil]

I'm even more suspicious now that the O'brien deal was pulled on purpose at the 12th hour, suddenly realised they didn't have the clearance from Pune so someone didn't correct the paperwork they'd surely already read over.

Probably just hoping to buy a bit of time but Pune went silent.

[BigUts]

21 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Just copied what we recorded below,  might be worth additional questions posing by FF or RT

 

As promised Mark and I met with the CEO and this is a brief run down of discussions.

 

1. Bridging loan - Taken out by Venkys against the training ground, using a long standing relationship with UK based businessman. The plan is this to be short term and they intend clearing it as soon as there is a relaxing of funds from India. They had to put up Parent company guarantees, but the liability of the loan remains with Venkys and won't appear as in the club accounts. The funds were made available to aid cash flow and ensure priority bills were paid.

2. Cash flow - although challenging the club has paid all priority bills, or renegotiated terms during the period up until and including the cash injection earlier this month, this includes all bonuses. No wages or bonuses have been deferred by anyone at the club.

3. Cash injection - the club are relieved with the 11 million or so which had been sanctioned by the Indian courts. Its a less than ideal situation as substantiation must be provided with each application and only bills, operating costs will be sanctioned. The money cannot be diverted to transfer funds and will be auditable on future applications. This money was to see the club until December 2023.

4. What's the plan for funds for the rest of the season? The club has once again put together a list of bills which will need to be paid, this will again go to the courts for authority to pay, the club are confident this will also be sanctioned.

5. Does that mean no transfer funds? If there is not a relaxation in India, then funds will need to be generated via player trading

6. Venkys sponsorship - Club taken 3 years payment of the 5 year deal in advance to cover cash flow.

7. DOF/CEO model, who decided this? This was Venkys Idea after seeing other clubs use this approach.

8. Have you taken paycut to fund a second person doing something you previously did on your own?  No

9. We have had a good record previous to a DOF of buying players with a good sell on value, is it fair to say that most of our playing assets are now from the academy, who have a genuine decent value? CEO acknowledged that our assets are from within rather than those purchased. It was noted that Hyam, Smodzics etc were scouted prior to the new Management set up and have been a success in terms of purchase price, but also the previous recruitment team.

10. Are you on a rolling contract/fixed contract? Notice period from either side required to terminate.

11. Season tickets - Club recommended a much lower price to India, in particular on the early bird,  however this was not acceptable and they set a higher opening early bird offer. It was acknowledged that the early bird offer didn't help low income families with the short duration and the club needs to learn from this. It was also acknowledged that the price was a stumbling block and something they will be looking at. However a large drop in price would have much wider implications if the club needed to later increase these year upon year, with the rises being much steeper for the club to remain viable in terms of minimum revenue required to operate within FFP.

12. Shirt launch - How do we launch a shirt and sell out within 2 hours?  The club ordered 15000 shirts, and he feels the launch was great success, obviously we need to sell all stock as 15000 was big commitment, however the limited opening batch was out of the clubs control with all shirts ordered in good time. The lack of shirts was not related to the clubs funding issues.

13. Closing the Blackburn End - the club received a number of complaints and hindsight is a wonderful thing. With cash flow a major issue at this time, the club attempted to try and limit match day costs. As CEO, he needed to look through a wider lense if funds were not forthcoming.  Being responsible for the lights being able to be turned on was the priority during a challenging period and the decision was not taken lightly.

14. Shaw will be remembered for a fax machine, and you for a coach you didn't buy but said you did? After a debate it was agreed the coach was a lease and we asked him to admit saying otherwise has become a standing joke with JDT. He stated they wanted to put some positive PR out as the coach is state of the art. We told him, that the demographic he is preaching to, some can't afford a holiday or the basics and it was a poor effort to appease the fans.

15. We asked what he feels is his achievements to date as CEO? He said stabilising the Club during the bad press. We challenged had he stabled the club or have those more vocal given him time and patience to rebuild? We pointed out crowd's have continued to dwindle,  and season ticket holder retention should be one of his main priorities l. It's no good selling 800 new season ticket holders, if you are losing a 1000 existing ones. We pointed out that they have not left their offices, gone out to the masses in and around the area, surrounding areas , put pop-ups up or to date given supporters a reason to return.

16. Is there any redundancies planned as part of the cut-backs? Not at this time, some have left employment for other reasons and these won't be replaced.

17. Supporter consultation meetings, why have they ceased , we do not believe meeting the FF in isolation instead of an open forum ticks the leagues mandate following consultation with the league ? He disputed this, but was happy to be corrected if that's the case. They stopped because of covid, but would be open to them restarting instead of multiple meetings, if there is genuine interest from supporters to attend a more open forum.

18. New Indian Based Commercial Director - He is cc'd on emails as a director however to date, has not got involved with Ewood and is not on the pay role.  The other Indian based directors are also not paid by Rovers, though Gupta does attend meetings and in particular surrounding finance. He plays a more active role, than is forseen with this new appointment which is more of a tick box exercise.

19. JDT contract - it is a 3 year deal with no talks of a new contract planned at this stage, he is ambitious. We asked why JDT thinks he was sold a pup?  He reiterated that its the same job as its always been with no pressure on league position. Its always been about developing and trading regardless of financial restrictions this summer.

20. Did we adopt quantity over quality this summer ? It was acknowledged that not all signings have worked out yet, either this season or last. We've had to take more chances , but some players take longer than others to settle.

21. Have the EFL or football league asked questions or taken closer look at Rovers since the investigations India?  He stated he talks weekly with both parties and at no point had their been any discussions or contact either formally or informally. The club are completely compliant.

22. Given the fans found out the bad news from the press, as it appears he does, is he aware of any more bombshells from India, that have yet to hit print? He said he was not aware of anything and Mr Desai has repeatedly reiterated the owners commitment to providing funds.

23. When does he think we wil be clear, so funds can be provided normally? He does not know beyond the short term facility in place.  He is confident that although substantiation is required to get funds signed off, that there should be no blockers to prevent these funds being transferred. He again reiterated the owners long term commitment.

24. Have they considered partnering with a credit union or endorsing one to offer supporters a facility to save for season tickets, given not all appear yo even pass the strict finance criteria by the clubs credit provider? He was interested on how this could work and would be open to looking at various options to aid affordability over a period of time, providing the club were not responsible/liable for the savings.

25. Large agent fees - We asked why the agent fees were so big? He stated some are historical and on long payment terms, so this is not just recent spend, it's cumulative of a number of seasons.

26. Loan from league during covid - Its been a bit of a noose but the final repayment will be made in January.

Above is just brief and I will happily have a chat off line with anyone who wants me to elaborate 

Thanks Glen 

[phili]

11 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I'm even more suspicious now that the O'brien deal was pulled on purpose at the 12th hour, suddenly realised they didn't have the clearance from Pune so someone didn't correct the paperwork they'd surely already read over.

Probably just hoping to buy a bit of time but Pune went silent.

Venky's were informed of the tax investigation in early Feb, so wouldn't be a surprise if Balaji contacted Silvester to delay submitting the paperwork following a tip off.

As Silvester attended all meetings detailing the timings as evidenced in the appeal, it has always been suspicious.

[ben_the_beast]

52 minutes ago, Ricky said:

Nobody is buying us with over £100m of debt. I’m pretty sure not a single one of those you mentioned was sold with those debt levels so the only option (as you mentioned) is administration and then the hope someone decides to buy us.

There’s a couple of teams on there that would clearly be more attractive to an investor, I’m thinking Birmingham and Sunderland mainly, due to the large catchment and fan base. Sunderland could get 40k attending quite easily if they were in the top flight. Our cap is probably 20-25k. That’s going to be something that an investor will look at.

Some of the others were bought when they were in the lower leagues at a lower cost.

I can only really see a future of administration and then a buy out. It would be great if a rich owner came in but as we’ve seen, we already have one of those and it’s not been the answer. A rich owner can still only invest so much due to ffp.

I don’t know the answer but it’s certainly a worrying time.

I agree somewhat with what you're saying, however there are other factors. Premier League money dwarfs gate receipts, so that would be part of any new owners investment plans. Then the other clubs you mention (without me doing much research), look to have been spending a bit in recent times. FFP is the anchor that weighs so many Championship clubs down. 

I can only assume with the financial restrictions and cut backs of the last couple of years that we are beginning to create a bit of a cushion which would allow any potential new owner the flex to invest. We also do have our academy set up, which is an asset in itself and is producing some players who are assets. 

If Venkys chose to sell without the debt, then I don't think we'd be totally unattractive to potential buyers. Highly unlikely given they've never shown any indication of doing so, but I do think if they are ever going to release us, then it's most likely within the next 12-24 months.

[Rogerb]

14 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I'm even more suspicious now that the O'brien deal was pulled on purpose at the 12th hour, suddenly realised they didn't have the clearance from Pune so someone didn't correct the paperwork they'd surely already read over.

Probably just hoping to buy a bit of time but Pune went silent.

Paying 30k a week for O'Brien is completely at odds with everything else that has gone on was never happening a rude awakening for GB

[tomphil]

Just now, Rogerb said:

Paying 30k a week for O'Brien is completely at odds with everything else that has gone on was never happening a rude awakening for GB

That's what i think it just never made any sense unless an outgoing was planned to cover it and that fell through.

 

[47er]

Don't forget we lost that lad from Crewe as well. at the same time. All agreed, even photographed in his Rovers shirt wasn't he?

He'll probably turn out to be a good 'un. But we'll keep borrowing and bringing them on for everybody else.

 

[Hasta]

11 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Paying 30k a week for O'Brien is completely at odds with everything else that has gone on was never happening a rude awakening for GB

Even more weird is the expense of taking it to a legal appeal when we didn't seem to have a leg to stand on, nor a pot to piss in.

[Mercer]

50 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Think some clarity needed here.

If personal guarantees are in place then the borrowing has been undertaken by a company  - presumably either The Blackburn Rovers Football and Athletic Club (despite what Waggott told you) or Venky's London Limited.  No doubt it will be a belt and braces job in terms of security - debenture, cross company guarantees and personal guarantees.

Re @glen9mullanposting, make no mistake, the football club is well and truly hooked in here

Should be noted that personal guarantees, usually directors' personal guarantees, are in the main only pursued by lenders when all other options have failed to generate sufficient funds to repay capital and pay interest which in commercial  lending situations generally includes default penalties 

Edited January 16 by Mercer

[windymiller7]

6 minutes ago, 47er said:

Don't forget we lost that lad from Crewe as well. at the same time. All agreed, even photographed in his Rovers shirt wasn't he?

He'll probably turn out to be a good 'un. But we'll keep borrowing and bringing them on for everybody else.

 

I was about to post similar, wasn't it Rochdale though?

[den]

Congrats on the BRFCS article this morning. A really good piece of work that should clarify a few things - even/particularly for those who don’t frequent here.

[Herbie6590]

1 hour ago, Silas said:

 

Did Morris end up writing off a lot of his debt? 

 

Oh yes…