Jon Dahl Tomasson - Officially No Longer Our Head Coach

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

where has Rich Sharpe said this? 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23020695.blackburn-rovers-quest-identity-mixed-results-continue/

[rovers11]

JDT has his own career in mind too with the brand of football he wants to play. He wants to manage at the highest level, and why wouldn't he, and to do that he has to show he can not only get results but also that he can implement a passing style of football. There's a reason why a brilliant manager like Sean Dyche will never get a top job - his brand of football is poor despite it being effective. 

I agree that if we are to develop players with high value in the transfer market then we do need to coach them to be technically adept. You generally can't play at the highest level now unless you are good on the ball. Someone like Travis, for example, who I think is a top championship midfielder and brilliant at breaking the play up, will unlikely ever play top level football as he's poor on the ball. 

I agree with the vision of the club but I'm not sure tippy tappy football is in our DNA. Interesting to see that Swansea are now above us. They are probably the most possession at all costs team in the league and it seems to be working now. 

[AllRoverAsia]

23 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Therefore Brad Friedel once won us a point at Charlton. And Charlie Mulgrew won us three points at Leeds.

We ended up losing both of those games.

Talk sense FFS.

Did the late miss cost a point, yes or no.

[Hasta]

13 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Talk sense FFS.

Did the late miss cost a point, yes or no.

Not necessarily because in the 4 minutes that were left I wouldnt have put it past us shipping at the other end, as my examples above and several others from recent history highlight.

If the ref had literally blown the whistle after the goalkeeper kicked it then I would say yes. But he didnt.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Hasta

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

Oh lordy, it's the long term "project" plan - always jam tomorrow, except the jam never arrives. Meanwhile they rake in the cash while fans get disillusioned at another Mowbray-style "journey" and slowly drift away

Tomasson obviously wants to play a certain way but he's got to be more pragmatic and learn quickly that the Championship isn't European football - it's a long, relentless battle and a passing game with sub-standard players just isn't going to work.

Even Mowbray saw the light eventually and Tomasson needs to wake up

Yep - jam tomorrow is the motto for these owners and their subordinates.

Promising good or great things but not to expect them now but in time to come. Tomorrow never comes.

I can't fathom making a decision now that we won't be doing much business in January. What happens if we are in the same league position then as now and need reinforcements? What happens if we continue to win 50% of our games and have a real shot at success? What happens if we lose players through sales or injurieS?

[Mattyblue]

The JDT comments about how having high possession stats ‘adds value to the squad’ (Christ knows how, but that’s another debate) are a great insight into how most managers are happy enough to fit into whatever the culture of their new club is.

When he arrived there was a lot of talk about how he wouldn’t be like TM banging on about ‘journeys’, ‘adding value’ etc, as he’s ‘a winner’, ‘ambitious’, ‘he’ll be off if the team/club isn’t going anywhere, like at Malmö’.

But in reality he’s arrived at a nice environment with patient bosses and, no doubt, a good wage. ‘Ambition’ can take many forms in a career.

The mantra here is always about ‘adding value’, ‘sustainability’, ‘journeys’. High earners being eased out. He knew that would be the case and still took the job, indeed he wouldn’t have been offered it if he had any objections to this modern day version of BRFC.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Eddie]

Gosh, some of you are hard to please. 

I know we've all grown wary of words like 'project', but this isn't an overnight affair. 

Look at some of the best managers in the world in recent seasons (Pep and Klopp included) and they took time to find their feet, build their squad, and install their system of play. 

To think that we will be able to do it in 6-12 months is simply unrealistic. But, who knows, maybe we will get lucky and sneak into the playoffs. The difference I want to see between the Mowbray era and this one is that I don't want us talked out of the playoffs by our own manager. Expectations can change and adapt over the course of the season.

As for why we are sticking to this style of play? Well, it is sort of the dominant approach to playing football these days. Some of our players are unsuited to it, but many aren't. I would rather have a mediocre season because we have a few square pegs playing in round holes than waste 12 months of development for our younger players on a system that they'll never use again. 

As for the value created by ball retention? Holding onto the ball is not the be-all-and-end-all, but intelligently moving the ball across your own backline and probing for holes will help you to create chances. We're not really there yet and we often choose the wrong pass and go backwards to avoid losing the ball, but in the long-term it could reap major rewards.

Basically, he's got 36 months for me unless something goes catastrophically wrong. Time to build a squad, time to implement a system, time to fail.

We have no divine right to succeed, but giving up on managers after only a few months is a one way ticket to a divine right to fail.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23020695.blackburn-rovers-quest-identity-mixed-results-continue/

Rich Sharpe needs to expand on that point cos would he says add value to the squad, does he mean in terms of improving and developing them then adding value to the player ability

54 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Yep - jam tomorrow is the motto for these owners and their subordinates.

Promising good or great things but not to expect them now but in time to come. Tomorrow never comes.

I can't fathom making a decision now that we won't be doing much business in January. What happens if we are in the same league position then as now and need reinforcements? What happens if we continue to win 50% of our games and have a real shot at success? What happens if we lose players through sales or injurieS?

Have you listened to the other interviews Broughton has done? I would say no decision has been made on how much signings we made in January. I guess that decision will be made during the break for the world cup on how many but I'm sure Rovers under GB and JDT will be flexible in case we get an injury crisis in January. Plus, any sales that happens in January or Summer

[roversfan99]

Tomasson will for the forseeable be shielded for much of the potential criticism because some with withhold all potential criticisms on account of it being early days.

We cannot possibly give a manager 3 whole years with the only out being if it goes "catastrophically wrong." A managers future should always be an ongoing thing, whereby if progression couple with results is not forthcoming then the managers position becomes jeopardised. Further time needs to be earnt, alas under most owners it is.

There has been a lot of optimism caused by what people say rather than what they do as is always the case in the early days, I remember the same posters who now are making out that Tomasson merely not being Mowbray means that he is a clear upgrade eating out of the latter's hand in the first couple of years in fans forums etc.

It is very early days admittedly and it has been a real mixed bag once you start judging on actions rather than words. Overall the league table looks healthy, the performance level especially after a quick start does not bode well with our current style not looking productive whilst being really boring to watch. Off the pitch, the choice to essentially write off an eight figure income for a season extra of our main player within a season being written off as a "transition" one already was always to me a huge black mark on the incoming regime. Conversely, I think we had done a few good bits and pieces on the contract front elsewhere, although players who have barely kicked a ball in senior football was never the issue in the past, it was when graduates got to the point whereby they could reasonably expect to be within the high earners. The new signings so far with reasonable funds look at best a real mixed bag.

[Mattyblue]

Hard to please? Not particularly. This is Blackburn Rovers now, I made peace with it years ago, the missed opportunity of January just reinforced my view that we have no real aspirations of promotion, whatever platitudes emanate from the powers that be re becoming ‘a sustainable PL club’ and all the rest of it. And I understand why when you compare budgets, the plodding, but stable, second tier club we are is not exactly going to get the missing thousands back, but hey ho.

My actual point was more a general musing about how JDT seems happy enough with the parameters the owners/GB/SW have set him, despite some optimistic talk about how he wouldn’t settle for a TM style development project and would rather walk out the door…

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Eddie]

14 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

My actual point was more a general musing about how JDT seems happy enough with the parameters the owners/GB/SW have set him, despite some optimistic talk about how he wouldn’t settle for a TM plod.

But how can you possibly be certain of what those parameters are? He had a healthy summer budget, had no pressure to shift players out, and is now in his first season in charge. Do you want him to appear under pressure? Do you think we could have brought a good manager in by telling them that they could face the chop within their first season (or even their first few months)? 

In order to make this job attractive it has to be seen as a project. The chance to take a couple of seasons to build a squad and challenge for promotion. Not only is that realistic, but it means that we get a manager - and players - who are actually committed to something beyond this season. 

I would be tremendously worried if he was talking about the need for immediate results. Implying that some window of opportunity was closing. 

 

 

[FGS5635]

When you play Dolan as a false 9, you have no choice but to play out from the back. The real problem for me isnt really trying to pass it out, I could live with that if it led to anything, but it doesnt match up with the rest of the setup. I have no real idea what we are trying to do going forward. It seems to be keep the ball and hope someone pulls a rabbitt out of hat somewhere in the 90mins.

My sanity cant take much more of Gally playing wide, I thought them days would die with TM leaving and Im sure gally do to 😞

 

[Eddie]

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We cannot possibly give a manager 3 whole years with the only out being if it goes "catastrophically wrong." A managers future should always be an ongoing thing, whereby if progression couple with results is not forthcoming then the managers position becomes jeopardised. Further time needs to be earnt, alas under most owners it is.

Can't we? Stability would appear to be one of the few common factors when it comes to successful football clubs. Yet fans regularly advocate for handing managers short leashes.

Absolutely nothing wrong with our owners giving a manager time. That shouldn't allow them to lower expectations or to go into an entirely stagnant mode, but we shouldn't expect immediate results, nor get rid of managers because they haven't delivered incredible results within 18 months.  

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Can't we? Stability would appear to be one of the few common factors when it comes to successful football clubs. Yet fans regularly advocate for handing managers short leashes.

Absolutely nothing wrong with our owners giving a manager time. That shouldn't allow them to lower expectations or to go into an entirely stagnant mode, but we shouldn't expect immediate results, nor get rid of managers because they haven't delivered incredible results within 18 months.  

There are plenty of clubs (example 1, Chelsea at the top end, or Watford with them being a Prem Club for most of the last decade) that defy the idea that stability and success automatically go hand in hand.

But there is a huge middle ground between catastrophically wrong (what does that entail, relegation?) and "incredible results within 18 months" which is the key thing here. There can't be a total disregard to always needing results in the short term even before you consider the illogical nature of putting too much stock in a "long term project" in the Championship considering the common high player turnovers each season, added to by loan deals being so common.

Tomasson like any other manager/head coach should need to justify extra time and extra trust in keeping him. If he sticks to this way of playing and it over time starts showing signs of knitting together both in performances and crucially results, then excellent. If not, and I am not for one minute implying that such a decision is near, but the consideration down the line needs to be made as to whether blind faith should continue to be put into a manager who is showing little signs for optimism on the pitch.

The thing is, he won't because under Venkys, he likely will get 3 seasons even if he took us down, but that is a different point altogether.

[Mattyblue]

23 minutes ago, Eddie said:

But how can you possibly be certain of what those parameters are? He had a healthy summer budget, had no pressure to shift players out, and is now in his first season in charge. Do you want him to appear under pressure? Do you think we could have brought a good manager in by telling them that they could face the chop within their first season (or even their first few months)? 

In order to make this job attractive it has to be seen as a project. The chance to take a couple of seasons to build a squad and challenge for promotion. Not only is that realistic, but it means that we get a manager - and players - who are actually committed to something beyond this season. 

I would be tremendously worried if he was talking about the need for immediate results. Implying that some window of opportunity was closing. 

 

 

Why would I want him under pressure or sacked? He’s doing perfectly fine.

Sorry, didn’t realise my musings were particularly controversial. Just noting that a manager can pivot from a top tier club that looks for/needs immediate results and expects to challenge for the title, to a second tier club, that looks to be a fair way from getting out the division, with a middling budget and an onus on youth development. JDT has obviously amended his own expectations of what is deemed a ‘success’, which is fair enough from his perspective. Like I said, career development can take many forms.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Eddie]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

There are plenty of clubs (example 1, Chelsea at the top end, or Watford with them being a Prem Club for most of the last decade) that defy the idea that stability and success automatically go hand in hand.

Tomasson like any other manager/head coach should need to justify extra time and extra trust in keeping him. 

I don't think Chelsea are a good example of how instability can breed success. They spend enough money to keep themselves in the top 4 and have had the odd random cup success in the last decade (obviously winning the Champions League was huge), but fundamentally their success this century is tied to the period of time when they had some stability. 

I guess the issue I take with the idea of having to 'justify extra time' is that it's not how I would treat anyone in any other job. I don't expect my employees to justify their continued employment on a daily basis. It frames the discussion as if the default position is firing people.

 

[jim mk2]

There's not many midfield players at Championship level who have the skill to receive the ball out of defence with their back to goal and turn into space and launch an attack.

Rothwell could do it and might have thrived under Tomasson but he's gone; Buckley could do it but is way off form at the moment. The fact is we just don't have players with the ability to do what Tomasson wants - and the result is we often lose the ball in our own half and are under pressure of our own making

We have 3 hulking big forwards to choose from and we should be launching long balls towards them and looking to play in our opponent's half instead of ours. It's old fashioned but you have to be pragmatic with the players you've got.   

 

[simongarnerisgod]

im`e getting increasingly fed up with the modern game,jusrt get stuck in,play to your strengths and attack,wether or not you have 70% possesion is irrelevant,the most inane point of us is our manager trying to play possesion football in stupid areas with players who ar`nt good enough,if venkys want to give him 100 million to spend then fair enough,lets get the tika tika going,thats not going to happen so ffs get a plan together that suits what you`ve got,i thought he was an intelligent man,not sure so sure now

[oldjamfan1]

10 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

There's not many midfield players at Championship level who have the skill to receive the ball out of defence with their back to goal and turn into space and launch an attack.

Rothwell could do it and might have thrived under Tomasson but he's gone; Buckley could do it but is way off form at the moment. The fact is we just don't have players with the ability to do what Tomasson wants - and the result is we often lose the ball in our own half and are under pressure of our own making

We have 3 hulking big forwards to choose from and we should be launching long balls towards them and looking to play in our opponent's half instead of ours. It's old fashioned but you have to be pragmatic with the players you've got.   

 

We do have at least one Jim; Adam Wharton. He should be in the side now. I appreciate that he probably can't play every game but he should be the go-to guy for that slot.

[roverblue]

21 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

There's not many midfield players at Championship level who have the skill to receive the ball out of defence with their back to goal and turn into space and launch an attack.

Rothwell could do it and might have thrived under Tomasson but he's gone; Buckley could do it but is way off form at the moment. The fact is we just don't have players with the ability to do what Tomasson wants - and the result is we often lose the ball in our own half and are under pressure of our own making

This is exactly how I see it too Jim, for this to work we need more in midfield and they need to drop deeper to receive the ball off the defence.

There was a prime example the other night were Ayala attemped to play a ground pass from the six yard box to the halfway line where Travis/Buckly were standing that was intercepted and nearly caused us to concede. JDT says they are picking the wrong options but I would argue that they arent provided with any options!

[roversfan99]

41 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I don't think Chelsea are a good example of how instability can breed success. They spend enough money to keep themselves in the top 4 and have had the odd random cup success in the last decade (obviously winning the Champions League was huge), but fundamentally their success this century is tied to the period of time when they had some stability. 

I guess the issue I take with the idea of having to 'justify extra time' is that it's not how I would treat anyone in any other job. I don't expect my employees to justify their continued employment on a daily basis. It frames the discussion as if the default position is firing people.

 

But it isn't comparable to any other job. Football managers are either given fixed term contracts that are in the grand scheme of things quite small in duration or rolling contracts, should they not last the duration then it is either down to being paid off having been sacked or being bought out by another team.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I’m not expecting overnight success but I am expecting to see a better standard of football than what I’m seeing at the moment. Even some small green shoots of improvement would be nice.

[SuperBrfc]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Can't we? Stability would appear to be one of the few common factors when it comes to successful football clubs. Yet fans regularly advocate for handing managers short leashes.

Absolutely nothing wrong with our owners giving a manager time. That shouldn't allow them to lower expectations or to go into an entirely stagnant mode, but we shouldn't expect immediate results, nor get rid of managers because they haven't delivered incredible results within 18 months.  

"Time is not your friend in football. You have to be winning games today. It's about today in football".

That was Graeme Souness on talkSPORT a few days ago. He's not wrong either. That's the standard that we used to have and enjoy. We didn't win every game, of course, but the mentality and intent was there. This shite about "adding player value" is meaninglessness twaddle in comparison, IMO.

JDT being happy with this project is a concern to me as it suggests he isn't the winner that I thought he was. As a player, yes, but as Rovers manager? I'm not seeing it.

Only at this Football Club and under these owners do managers get a ticket to do as they please with seemingly no pressure or expectation on their shoulders.

I don't understand why there shouldn't be pressure on JDT, it's a results business at the end of the day.

If things nosedive in the next couple of months, he needs potting, sharpish. We've already wasted 10 years, we can't be wasting 3 more if the signs aren't there of us progressing.

We're likely to have another Mowbray situation on our hands, IMO, where the only way he is going is if he walks of his own accord.

[Miller11]

8 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Why does passing the ball around aimlessly ‘create value’?

I kind of see the logic. Players at our current level these days are either worth a massive transfer fee or absolutely nothing. The players worth money are the ones that according to the standardised statistical analysis can pass a ball. Nobody cares about good headers of the ball at  centre half or strong, quick fullbacks who can tackle, or skilful players with a bit of individuality… it’s all about boring ball retention. Goalscorers aren’t even at a premium anymore judging by the fact nobody would splash out on Brereton and the relatively modest fee City paid for Haaland.

Unfortunately all our players are shit at it and rather than creating value it’s only currently highlighting their weaknesses. It’s probably reducing their market value.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

4 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

The JDT comments about how having high possession stats ‘adds value to the squad’ (Christ knows how, but that’s another debate) are a great insight into how most managers are happy enough to fit into whatever the culture of their new club is.

When he arrived there was a lot of talk about how he wouldn’t be like TM banging on about ‘journeys’, ‘adding value’ etc, as he’s ‘a winner’, ‘ambitious’, ‘he’ll be off if the team/club isn’t going anywhere, like at Malmö’.

But in reality he’s arrived at a nice environment with patient bosses and, no doubt, a good wage. ‘Ambition’ can take many forms in a career.

The mantra here is always about ‘adding value’, ‘sustainability’, ‘journeys’. High earners being eased out. He knew that would be the case and still took the job, indeed he wouldn’t have been offered it if he had any objections to this modern day version of BRFC.

One key thing that JDT said numerous times when he joined was basically that 'he wanted us to play attacking possession based football, BUT that the possession had to have some real intent to it and not just be knocking the ball about aimlessly in our own half just for the sake of it' 

Just not what we're seeing though at all! 😞 i wouldn't even say we're playing attacking football of any kind judge by our average shots on target per game...

He inherited a squad mostly full of mid table championship players and with no real experienced quality pros aside from Ayala. Our summer transfer window was lame aside from Hyam and Brittain(although brittain still has a lot to prove) 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Armchair supporter supremo