Jon Dahl Tomasson - Officially No Longer Our Head Coach

[Mattyblue]

Players always, always say that in public. Even to the bitter end with Ke*n.

Which is fair enough, but ultimately the manager carries the can.

[AllRoverAsia]

59 minutes ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

Just a thought... 

If JDTs roller coaster of WLWL... results continues it would have us lose to mowbrays Sunderland, Beat West ham then lose to Burnley 😣

 

So We need to break that cycle fast. 

🎢🎢🎢

We will not beat Boro, maybe a draw 

Roller coaster stalled.

[Mike E]

WLWLWL etc isn't bad form. It's better than average form as it includes no draws and likely places us 8th-10th.

That with a squad that seemed to fall through a trapdoor February onwards.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

WLWLWL etc isn't bad form. It's better than average form as it includes no draws and likely places us 8th-10th.

That with a squad that seemed to fall through a trapdoor February onwards.

I agree, it's not bad form at all considering the players available, all the changes behind the scenes in the past few months and having silly owners..... But it is pretty bizzare form though😄 could only happen in venkyworld.

[MarkBRFC]

I have a feeling the WLWLWL will end soon enough.

 

[DE.]

We've had a lot more convincing defeats than victories, which is a valid concern. 

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

WLWLWL etc isn't bad form. It's better than average form as it includes no draws and likely places us 8th-10th.

That with a squad that seemed to fall through a trapdoor February onwards.

It isn't bad and it's becoming very Sam Allardyce in terms of home v away results.

It's less palatable when you look at the away performances though rather than the end results.  You won't get results unless you have the right approach, desire and game management.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

4 hours ago, tomphil said:

It isn't bad and it's becoming very Sam Allardyce in terms of home v away results.

It's less palatable when you look at the away performances though rather than the end results.  You won't get results unless you have the right approach, desire and game management.

Good point with the Allardyce comparison. Only obvious difference being under allardyce we where a prem team scraping by without much of a transfer budget and under Tomasson were a championship team with a modest budget

Edited October 13, 2022 by Armchair supporter supremo

[Norbert Rassragr]

We lost, so I'm guessing JDT is now as bad as Coyle, until we next win. Then he will be good again.

Thing is, if he was to be sacked now, who will step in and suddenly be brilliant? 

[tomphil]

56 minutes ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

Good point with the Allardyce comparison. Only obvious difference being under allardyce we where a prem team scraping by with much of a transfer budget and under Tomasson were a championship team with a modest budget

Yes we have more capability in this squad pound for pound compared to then and the different leagues but it is being overlooked in favour of trying to drill into them a different football style.

Allardyce always plays a certain way based on percentages first wherever he goes but what he found here was the nearest squad suited to it from his Bolton days.

JDT seems to be intent on carrying on Mowbrays style with added football in our own box and just like TM there isn't half enough focus on using the talents we do have to suit the best of their ability. This over riding desire to try and develop players and create 'footballers' rather than go after wins and try and get out of this league.

Just WTF are they all so afraid of at this club that if the play offs or promotion did happen it would be a by product of something else rather that a real target or goal.  Almost as if it would get in the way if it happened now in the near future instead of at the end of some fantasy journey sometime in the future.

[tomphil]

34 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

We lost, so I'm guessing JDT is now as bad as Coyle, until we next win. Then he will be good again.

Thing is, if he was to be sacked now, who will step in and suddenly be brilliant? 

Point us to the posts wanting him sacked ?

[SuperBrfc]

I do think there is an element of stubbornness about JDT persisting with this slow tippy tappy game. However, I also think that the project itself is becoming a bit of a millstone around his neck. One of the key parts of this project is increasing player value and he has to find ways to do that. The manager himself has recently said focusing on ball retention will help to create squad value. If that is your focus or on your mind as a manager, performances and results are more than likely going to suffer.

He's likely to stick with the tippy tappy football no matter what, not just due to it being his preferred style but also because they see that as the best way to "create value".

The way I see it, Hedges and others being played out of position is a way to try and make those players versatile and is an attempt to increase their value in that way.

The priorities are all wrong, IMO, but this goes back to the top and owners who don't want to fund a promotion push. I felt it from day one, after hearing Broughton speak, that this project was a cheapskate route taken by the owners and that promotion was just a wishful thought. Something for the fans to cling onto without there being serious intent from the top to make it happen.

I have a bad feeling that they have already pencilled in Hirst as a £5m signing for next season. Playing him out wide, giving him penalties, it's all about creating value, in my view. The more goals he scores this season, the more they can justify spending money on him in the summer, IMO.

The owners won't fund a proper promotion push, however, as seen with Gallagher and BBD, they will shell out on a 'project' signing from time to time. I fear they may have been talked into thinking that Hirst could be the next BBD. The way JDT and Broughton chased him all summer is worrying, but an indicator that they have chosen him as the "next one".

I also agree with posters who feel Dack may be being forced out as they want his wages off the books. That is what it looks like, IMO. Szmodics is levels below Dack as a player. They have to justify the £1.8m that was blown on him somehow though.

Sadly, it means we have to look on as a proven attacking threat sits games out and is pushed closer towards a possible reunion with Mowbray at Sunderland. This will backfire on the management. I think it already is beginning to as many of the lads are mates with Dack and don't look happy out there to me.

Pathways, minutes and creating value. It's all bullshit. I want to know what scares the hierarchy about promotion and why they seem to be happy to put it off year after year. The rhetoric on the ground is "we are building". Building what, exactly? Five years of Mowbray's so called building left a demolition site at the end of it. This lot want three years now. Does it take 8 years to build a promotion winning team?

Something doesn't seem right here.

[Leonard Venkhater]

3 hours ago, DE. said:

We've had a lot more convincing defeats than victories, which is a valid concern. 

I agree. It is both the number and the manner of those defeats.

The Cardiff and Wigan games were so predictable. It is like a script...

[smiller14]

2 hours ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

We lost, so I'm guessing JDT is now as bad as Coyle, until we next win. Then he will be good again.

Thing is, if he was to be sacked now, who will step in and suddenly be brilliant? 

I don't think anyone wants him sacked. Any criticisms have been valid and have been very much playing the ball, not the man. Not seen any Coyle comparisons but appears you have? As for who will be brilliant, probably nobody. I do think we'd get more out of some players though if we played with a bit more attacking intent. Gallagher and Hirst on the wings, a false 9 lost up top and Hedges at RWB are all questionable in their own way. I especially felt sorry for Hedges, playing out of position in front of his national team coach before being hauled off at half time. That's probably that for his Wales World Cup hopes. 

As for the WLWLWL run, yes it would likely have us 8th-10th. For me it's unsustainable as we look much more likely to drop a win to a loss/draw than turn the losses into positive results. Off the top of my head the Wigan, Luton, Reading, Sheffield United and Cardiff performances all rank amongst some of the worst we've produced in recent years on the road, with barely a chance created over the 450 minutes of football. All 5 we've been rank rotten, which is a worrying sign really.

I don't think it's a lost cause. It might click eventually and some of the misery on the road might give way to some sort of functional team. It doesn't look likely at the moment. People decry xG and whilst it's inevitably very flawed, ours being shockingly low over the last few away games is probably a fair reflection of how toothless the performances have been. Across all 5 away games above, I can think of a couple of chances - the missed penalty at Cardiff, Diaz's chance at Luton.... and I'm genuinely out of ideas! 2 decent chances in those 5 away games is criminal. Thankfully we were better against Blackpool and Swansea, with Swansea playing in a style weirdly akin to how we're playing now!

I've tried to avoid my own confirmation bias where possible, but speaking to total neutrals who watched the Cardiff/Wigan games on Sky and they've all commented on how crap we looked. Hard to argue really. I know it's just another game, but we really need to step it up in time for the Burnley game. A similarly timid and lethargic display will not be tolerated there, and the last thing I want is the players to face the ire of the fans. But something has to give soon - people pay a hell of a lot of money to travel up and down the country, and whilst we can't win everywhere, we should at least expect a team showing some aspect of 'arte et labore' - our total lack of urgency is the most frustrating thing imaginable when you've spent north of £100 and are miles away from home. 

Roll on Boro, which hopefully is a chance to start righting some wrongs. 

[SuperBrfc]

5 minutes ago, smiller14 said:

I don't think anyone wants him sacked. Any criticisms have been valid and have been very much playing the ball, not the man. Not seen any Coyle comparisons but appears you have? 

I mentioned in the Wigan thread post match that JDT was being called the "Danish Owen Coyle" elsewhere online, and that I couldn't disagree with it. I followed it up by saying not even Coyle would have us playing this badly. We saw a 30 pass team move leading to Danny Graham's goal at Derby, for example. It was more to highlight how bad this passing game is at present, not to say Coyle was a good manager.

I'm guessing that's what he is referring to.

[tomphil]

JDT is a novice compared to Coyle though and hes shown enough already to escape that kind of comparison. He just needs to get to grips with the facts that what might work at home to the likes of Peterborough won't work away to the likes of Cardiff and Wigan.

They knew the other night we'd be keeping the ball at the back so just jumped in pressed us high and went for every ball in the middle where we were light.  Pretty basic stuff and the hard work and persistence of that paid off when they finally pounced on one of the numerous dithering ponderous attempts at this style went their way.

[DE.]

I don't think there are many people seriously calling for JDT to be removed, just flagging up some genuine concerns from the opening couple of months. Of course we have to give him time to adapt to the job, the league and the team he has available to him. The only time to consider sacking him this season would be if we went into a major downward spiral and were genuinely in danger of being relegated, not that Venky's would make that decision in time anyway. They left it too late with Coyle and they'd leave it too late again if it happened this time around.

Not that I think this will happen. I envision a frustrating season where we ultimately finish mid-table. The question at the end of the season, assuming this is how it goes, will be whether JDT is growing as a manager and learning from his mistakes. It's too early to tell at this point, but by the end of the season we should have an idea of whether he's got the flexibility to cope when things aren't going as expected. Good managers are able to work with what they've got until they are able to mould the side into something closer approaching the vision they have. 

Allardyce is actually a good example of this, particularly during his time at Bolton. He always retained his core ethos but was able to develop the team's style of play as time went on and he was able to bring in better players. Hughes whilst he was with us similarly adapted the way we played and set up depending on the calibre of players he had available - from the likes of Amoruso, Douglas, Matteo, Flitcroft, Dickov and Stead to later on with Nelsen, Samba, Bentley, Benni McCarthy, Bellamy and Santa Cruz. Generally speaking a decent manager will build from the back and add the flair and panache over time as they become more comfortable with the players they have and their abilities. JDT deserves time to build a squad capable of playing the football he wants to play, but also has to be able to utilise what he has in the meantime. 

[Southside Rover]

Whilst perhaps only Millwall come close to our level of inconsistency the league is so tight it shows we are not really any better or worse than the rest right now results wise.

The performances are equally inconsistent although more drab than good but that in itself is an improvement on TMs reign. Very rare I could say we were brilliant watching TMs football.

It's only October so for me it still needs time before giving up on JDTs blueprint. Once it stops it stops, clearly he believes in it and we need to get behind it.

As always it's frustrating because if we got our act together we could be storming off in front but as we stutter so is everyone else.

Not many are expecting a result Saturday so the scene is set for an impressive away victory!

[chaddyrovers]

On 12/10/2022 at 07:58, Blue blood said:

Not sure any of that endorses them Chaddy! 

At 18 months negotiate, 12 months get rid and recoup some money. Or even better yet start negotiations a darn sight earlier - that would stop them playing contract chicken with us (or at least leave us better served when they do ) the more I think on it 18 months is cutting it fine. 

As for the cheap offers for Bereton, assuming that Venkys weren't going to trouser it (admittedly a possibility in which you keep the player) then a cheap offer would have still enabled us to rebuild the team. £10 million wasn't it? That's 2 or 3 new additions to a thin squad. Players who the manager chose. Goodness even if we couldn't have found a striker in budget for a permanent, getting a good PL loan and strengthening a couple of other positions would have still seen us in a better position next summer to be finding a permanent replacement for Bereton. As it is there's been no money to strengthen and we are looking to replace him with zero incoming funds. 

So whilst they've given JDT a bit of money this year, the underlying decision making and business planning is still woeful. 

I don't think we should have accepted any low offers for BBD. On Rothwell, I think he was always going to leave here this past summer. 

I don't think our squad is thin at all and on Hirst Its a loan to buy so its try before we buy situation. 

I'm sure Rovers DoF and head of recruitment are scouting and looking at players to replace in terms of striker and left winger to replace BBD with for the summer if he does leave. I do think we need to know what BBD wants to do and is he looking to sign pre contract with Spanish club to move there next summer. If that is the case, then fair enough but Rovers need to know the situation in the coming weeks. 

On 12/10/2022 at 13:56, roversfan99 said:

Cutting off our nose to spite our face by rejecting it. As you said, no business planning. 

£10m is a massive amount of money, especially considering the FFP excuse people love to mention, it gives us much more scope within that and in itself it is a lot of money, a profit on the purchase and it is over double what we spent in the summer which was described as a "healthy" budget.

We were never offered 10 million straight cash, Fulham was 6 mil with potential add ons of 4 mil, plus 2 offers of 8.4 million pounds from Sevilla and Nice. You would accept a low offer for our best attacking player and goalscorer on the cheap. Plus finding 2 replacements for him and bringing them in. Also, how late the offers were coming in and the fact that BBD wasn't pushing to leave Rovers. I still think we able to get to agree a new contract with him. 

Yes we did have a healthy budget in the summer and we probably have money 

[JacknOry]

sigh

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't think we should have accepted any low offers for BBD. On Rothwell, I think he was always going to leave here this past summer. 

I don't think our squad is thin at all and on Hirst Its a loan to buy so its try before we buy situation. 

I'm sure Rovers DoF and head of recruitment are scouting and looking at players to replace in terms of striker and left winger to replace BBD with for the summer if he does leave. I do think we need to know what BBD wants to do and is he looking to sign pre contract with Spanish club to move there next summer. If that is the case, then fair enough but Rovers need to know the situation in the coming weeks. 

We were never offered 10 million straight cash, Fulham was 6 mil with potential add ons of 4 mil, plus 2 offers of 8.4 million pounds from Sevilla and Nice. You would accept a low offer for our best attacking player and goalscorer on the cheap. Plus finding 2 replacements for him and bringing them in. Also, how late the offers were coming in and the fact that BBD wasn't pushing to leave Rovers. I still think we able to get to agree a new contract with him. 

Yes we did have a healthy budget in the summer and we probably have money 

Sorry mate totally disagree on a couple of points 🙂 I think the squad is still super thin. For example what defensive mid have we got besides Travis? Or any experience in the middle for that matter. Who is the right back cover? When Gally is your second best striker there are issues. I'd say we look thin in a few places, and in a lot more are banking on youth to cover and be adequate squad players. If I've learned one thing in football it's some youth players will make it but some definitely won't, even promising ones. So yeah it seems thin to me. 

Thanks for more info on Bereton. Helpful to know and lower than I thought. That said it could do a lot of good still even with the 8 million or so. Not saying this is totally accurate but check out the fees according to this website. Basically the Bereton money, even the 8 mill could have paid for most clubs top 2 or 3 most expensive signings. Still a fair whack to miss out on even if it is way lower than hoped. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2

So yeah, to me we really should have sold and reinvested. 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Sorry mate totally disagree on a couple of points 🙂 I think the squad is still super thin. For example what defensive mid have we got besides Travis? Or any experience in the middle for that matter. Who is the right back cover?

I don't think the squad is super thin at all. So we have agree to disagree. Morton and Garrett are defensive midfielders. 

Right back,  Brittain is first choice with Carter as back then Buckley or Travis are back ups

5 hours ago, Blue blood said:

When Gally is your second best striker there are issues. I'd say we look thin in a few places, and in a lot more are banking on youth to cover and be adequate squad players. If I've learned one thing in football it's some youth players will make it but some definitely won't, even promising ones. So yeah it seems thin to me. 

We have some really good young players coming through and I would used them rather than block their pathway into our first team squad. 

5 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Thanks for more info on Brereton. Helpful to know and lower than I thought. That said it could do a lot of good still even with the 8 million or so. Not saying this is totally accurate but check out the fees according to this website. Basically the Bereton money, even the 8 mill could have paid for most clubs top 2 or 3 most expensive signings. Still a fair whack to miss out on even if it is way lower than hoped. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2

So yeah, to me we really should have sold and reinvested. 

We have to disagree on agree on this. 

[Mattyblue]

So we don’t have any other right backs then, just centre halves or midfielders that can fill in, confirming Blue blood’s point?

Edited October 15, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Atko's Engine]

Not sure why Travis is getting so much criticism at the moment? I appreciate he might be going through a rough patch and has his limitations as an all-round CM, but in his 4/5 years as a first teamer he's hardly let us down, and the general consensus on here was that we missed him in the middle when he stood in for Brittain at RB during our 3 game losing run. 

I'm not saying he's undroppable as no-one is (or should be), but on form he's as good as anyone in this division at what he does so I think he's worth persevering with. I would have Garrett on the bench though as he looks like the closest like-for-like replacement in the squad.

I do think Dack deserves a start, but can't see it as he played the full 90 midweek for the U21s.

But I think it will be 433:

Kaminski

Brittain

Hyam

S Wharton

Pickering 

Hedges

Travis

Morton

Gallagher

Szmodics 

BBD 

Subs: Pears, Mola, Dack, A Wharton, Hirst, Buckley, Dolan

Need to find some confidence on the road, away to manager less team in 21st is a good time for that, but we all know they're much better than that.

 

[Blue blood]

6 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't think the squad is super thin at all. So we have agree to disagree. Morton and Garrett are defensive midfielders. 

Right back,  Brittain is first choice with Carter as back then Buckley or Travis are back ups

We have some really good young players coming through and I would used them rather than block their pathway into our first team squad. 

We have to disagree on agree on this. 

Good that we can disagree respectfully. The one thing I can't see how you can say - and apologies if I am overstating your case/misunderstanding you - is that all the young players filling out the squad will be a success. I just cannot see how you or the club can bank on that given that it never happens that all youth players introduced to the first team squad step up to make the grade. 

Every club throughout history has seen this not be the case, so I don't see how you or the club can really bank on this. Blimey even using Rovers as an example we have seen that to be the case.

From Marlon Brooms to JRC there have been tons of.very talented youngsters who have entered the squad and not made it. Then there's the load who take time to develop - look at how long Bereton was a dead weight, Nayambe when he broke into the first team, how many loans out Wharton has had (one too many, he was ready earlier imo but I digress.)

Quite simply no team can rely on an entire cohort of youngsters to step up and fill the squad in a season. History proves that to be the case. Now I'm not saying some of them won't, but to expect Phillips, JRC, A Wharton, Garrett, Vale and maybe a few more to all be squad players just isn't going to happen. Some will make it, some won't. That's facts of football. Assuming the whole lot will is folly by the club and something I don't think we can count on whatsoever.