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20 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Not a lot we can do mate, but I've mentioned a few times we are exposed down our flanks. That's the 'beauty' of 4-3-3, very little cover for our FB's (who bomb on anyway). The thinking presumably is that out attacking threat will compensate for our openness at the back. However, apart from the few teams we've hammered we are toothless up front.

6 goals in 8 games against everyone that isn't Cov, Wyc, QPR and Derby. Pretty shite really. 

 

Agreed.

The thing is, it's not a recent issue either, it seems the opposition target the area regardless of set up.

I used to work with a woman married to a Sheff Weds scout this will have been about 5 years ago now. He had been watching us a couple of times prior to us playing them so I asked what he had noted, 'get the ball behind the full backs early' was the response.

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Just now, LDRover said:

Agreed.

The thing is, it's not a recent issue either, it seems the opposition target the area regardless of set up.

I used to work with a woman married to a Sheff Weds scout this will have been about 5 years ago now. He had been watching us a couple of times prior to us playing them so I asked what he had noted, 'get the ball behind the full backs early' was the response.

Yes, it’s an obvious flaw in that system. I also reckon that the only way you can fit Rothwell in our team is to play 5 in midfield.

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Just now, Blue blood said:

The question I ask myself is do we look any more likely now 3 years on to get promoted then when we first came up. And whilst on paper yes, on the pitch it's a clear no. And if for no other reason than that he needs to go. 

No! 

Mowbray has to go. Did you not see that performance on Saturday and the previous 20 performances? 

If we hadn't won QPR all the happy clappers would surely be questioning Mowbray? 

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"When we've got everyone available..."

Wow just watch us go!

Although perhaps in reality those game changers might end up on the bench with two holding midfielders players instead at home, two centre forwards out on the wing and a little striker through the middle. Quite possibly I might now be that dinosaur, that I thought my dad was, when he went on about inside and outside forwards, two wingers whose job was to get to bye-line and knock it back, with three at the back. I recall Harry Chapman standing one up for SG to nod in, seemed a fairly reasonable way to break down your opponents and score. 

Though also I genuinely do not believe he knows his best starting line up, get's too engrossed in systems and opponents. In my opinion we get better results and performances when he gets forced into a corner and has no alternatives. 

Sigh. 

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23 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

No! 

Mowbray has to go. Did you not see that performance on Saturday and the previous 20 performances? 

If we hadn't won QPR all the happy clappers would surely be questioning Mowbray? 

Sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote but I actually was saying he should get the boot... 

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I will give Mowbray this.

He has come up finally with the 4-3-3 which he has drilled into the squad so that subs don't disrupt the flow and increasingly fit into the system.

4-3-3 really suits rotating Brereton, Gallagher, Armstrong and Elliott and Travis will take to it like a duck to water.

The big question is where Dack fits.. but what a nice problem to have when we eventually have it.

This is essential with a huge squad with multiple players coming through the Academy complementing the 25 named players.

Having such a monster squad is essential this season and Norwich are less well set up for handling absences than we are currently.

He got away with 3 against 5 in midfield against Barnsley because man for man we had the better players all over the park.

The expanded bench and ability to use 5 subs helped Rovers a lot today. It meant we had specialists for all positions and arguably we didn't get disrupted by either injury.

I expect to see two pairs of subs to be used regularly throughout the season by Mowbray now with the changed rule except when we have injuries.

So kudos to Mowbray for the system and foresight.

Edited by philipl
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If we are winning and doing well i wouldn't be changing things just to fir Dack back in.  We are bigger than 1 player although its not looked that way at times.

It might be a dilemma but the team comes first and no doubt at some point in the future we might be relying on him again. That would signal we haven't moved forwards though.

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4 hours ago, philipl said:

I will give Mowbray this.

He has come up finally with the 4-3-3 which he has drilled into the squad so that subs don't disrupt the flow and increasingly fit into the system.

4-3-3 really suits rotating Brereton, Gallagher, Armstrong and Elliott and Travis will take to it like a duck to water.

The big question is where Dack fits.. but what a nice problem to have when we eventually have it.

This is essential with a huge squad with multiple players coming through the Academy complementing the 25 named players.

Having such a monster squad is essential this season and Norwich are less well set up for handling absences than we are currently.

He got away with 3 against 5 in midfield against Barnsley because man for man we had the better players all over the park.

The expanded bench and ability to use 5 subs helped Rovers a lot today. It meant we had specialists for all positions and arguably we didn't get disrupted by either injury.

I expect to see two pairs of subs to be used regularly throughout the season by Mowbray now with the changed rule except when we have injuries.

So kudos to Mowbray for the system and foresight.

Football is becoming like Rugby League were the strength of your bench can dictate the outcome of the game.

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Where Dack fits in 4-3-3 is either in Holtbys role, where he will be second choice or in Armstrong where he will be 2nd or 3rd choice even to start with. Maybe he can compete with Rothwell either. He's good baller so he could maintain some level of ball retention in midfield, but where he would excel would be arriving in the box on the end of stuff. A great player to have coming back in. Will give the opposition a huge problem. 

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The squad has a nice balance to it, the long game recruitment is starting to look really good thanks to Gallagher and Brereton now delivering and the shape we are adopting.

Armstrong firing on all cylinders.

Having the likes of Dolan and Elliott along with Brereton and Gallagher all vying for 2 wide forward positions is a lovely little battle.

Then you have the likes of Holtby, Rothwell, Dack, Trybull, Johnson, Travis and co options centrally.

Still think we are relatively low on options at the back but Williams and Wharton are proving (when fit) to be decent options with Nyambe and Douglas great first choice full backs.

Kaminski looks inspired, his presence seems to really steady and organise those in front of him.

Huge credit due there, I’ll be surprised if we go up still but I think top 6 is now something we should be disappointed if we don’t achieve with what we have. I don’t think we’ll be far off either 

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Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

                   Kaminski

Nymabe   Lenihan Wharton Douglas

          Travis Holtby Rothwell

                Dack  Elliott

                 Armstrong

 

Obviously you could mix and match the players but it might be worth a do. 

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On 29/11/2020 at 14:54, Blue blood said:

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1? 

 

 

just stick to two banks of four sitting a bit deeper and hit em on the counter with armstrongs pace,i also worry about the 4-3-3,quality sides will exploit the space between the midfield and defence,reading tore us a new one doing exactly that,i don`t think you can play 4-3-3 against everyone

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On 29/11/2020 at 10:16, tomphil said:

If we are winning and doing well i wouldn't be changing things just to fir Dack back in.  We are bigger than 1 player although its not looked that way at times.

It might be a dilemma but the team comes first and no doubt at some point in the future we might be relying on him again. That would signal we haven't moved forwards though.

We do seem to have progressed from a very one dimensional Dack and Graham team to one with half a dozen players who can win a game.

Mowbray has struggled a bit to get us to work, but this year everything seems to be clicking in place.

If we can keep it sustained over the season I think it will be the most comprehensive tactical overhaul of a team I've ever seen at Rovers. Its pretty incredible how utterly different we look to last year. No one's playing the same way really, all have different roles.

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On 29/11/2020 at 14:54, Blue blood said:

Hate being Scrooge but we need plan B for playing the better teams as the 4-3-3 doesn't, or hasn't yet worked against them. 

That said I am pleased there actually is a plan A which works and suits the majority of our squad. Bereton and Rothwell and Holtby all look much better in this system and long term (assuming  we can keep the bulk of the squad together) it seems a good plan to have. 

We do however have to find a system that causes the better teams problems. Not sure what that is. Perhaps a return to 4-2-3-1?

I'm happy to say one of our big vulnerabilities seems solved. Weve been terrible under the long ball, see Cardiff this year or Preston last season, however with Wharton in the team we look a lot more solid against that. Reckon Ayala when fit will also offer that. A big relief. 

That said big problem in our current 433 for me is left back. Against good teams Douglas doesn't have the pace and Bell doesn't have the positioning for a high line. Could do with a better signing there imo.

In terms of an alternative system - looking at our personnel adapting to a counter attacking game should suit us. Quick skillful players are something we have a lot of. 4231 would make sense. You wouldn't even need to change the starting XI.

                          Kaminski

Nyambe.   Lenihan.  Wharton.  Douglas.  

                   Holtby.    Johnson

         Elliot.      Rothwell.    Brereton.  

                       Armstrong 

Maybe the next iteration is to start more conservatively in a 4231 and then change to 433 at the right time in the game? Seems a bit too clever to me though...

Anyway Brentford and Norwich both around the corner do look tricky. Will be interesting to see if we change approach.

Reckon though Mowbray will stick with the 433 and say "you adapt to us" rather than the other way round. And who can blame him really? Only time we've looked poor was in the run of Forest, Watford, Reading, Middlesborough, Swansea and we were missing key players fundamental to our system (Kaminski, Rothwell, Holtby, Armstrong at various times).

Reckon if we have all the above available we can feel confident taking anyone on.

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Some good thoughts simongarner... and joey. My worry is with both is the players don't quite fit the system. 

Who plays wide (well!) in the midfield bank of 4? And Bereton has struggled as part of the 3 behind the main striker. Plus I'm not sure Rothwell excels in the hole. 

I'm not trying to nit pick as I don't have any answers to this. I can see why trying 4-3-3, a system with some success and suits our players, is worth the gamble. But where it hasn't worked is against the stronger teams. It's a dilemma. 

The point is made that the formation struggles when key men are out of the side but with Covid and injuries can we really rely on our best players to stay fit in order for it to work against the better teams? That said the chances of working will only increase with our better players fit. 

Personally suspect a different system may be the answer but am not sure as yet what it is. 

Edit - thinking about Gally and Armstrong up front that could be the new King Gestede type combo. Still a few midfield issues but it would allow us to defend from the front and give us a few outlets. Maybe worth a shot?

 

 

Edited by Blue blood
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 thinking about Gally and Armstrong up front that could be the new King Gestede type combo. Still a few midfield issues but it would allow us to defend from the front and give us a few outlets. Maybe worth a shot?

mowbray has always been reluctant to play with two strikers,though i agree it would work,armstrong or dack playing just behind a striker looking for space could possibly be lethal

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9 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

We do seem to have progressed from a very one dimensional Dack and Graham team to one with half a dozen players who can win a game.

Mowbray has struggled a bit to get us to work, but this year everything seems to be clicking in place.

If we can keep it sustained over the season I think it will be the most comprehensive tactical overhaul of a team I've ever seen at Rovers. Its pretty incredible how utterly different we look to last year. No one's playing the same way really, all have different roles.

Certainly more pleasant watching a side that looks more balanced and players comfortable in the positions they were presumably recruited to play in. Said it before but if Mowbray took this team up now or next season it would rank as one of the finest BRFC modern time achievements without question.

Thing is though have he just landed on this because of the situation or is it really a planned progression ?  Dack coming back is great but it is also a dilemma but a good one if worked properly. Him, Bennett, Evans etc all being back fit actually worries me when it shouldn't do as the spectre of disjointed formations and shoehorning might rear its head again.

Only time will tell if he really is moving us on but for now perhaps it's better that lads come back in dribs and drabs and cover for other inevitable absences. 

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On 23/11/2020 at 16:06, Blue blood said:

The question I ask myself is do we look any more likely now 3 years on to get promoted then when we first came up. And whilst on paper yes, on the pitch it's a clear no. And if for no other reason than that he needs to go. 

The answer is clearly yes. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional.

The real question is - given the player development, the budget available, and the squad that he has had at his disposal for the last two or three seasons - should we be closer to going up.

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