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2 minutes ago, rog of the rovers said:

I just went off the list of managers mentioned for the Sheffield Wednesday job.

Plus, I'd argue appointing Joey Barton would be less of a surprise than when we appointed C0yle

I would say Barton would be a far bigger shock and people would be very unhappy. Burnley links aside, many were cautiously optimistic about Coyle. 

They could certainly surprise us though! 

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16 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Of course you never give up, ‘next year Rodders...’ and all that, but why would we have given up in the 80s anyway? 

You missed the point again Matty.

I agree with you on most things, but we'll leave this one here. 

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27 minutes ago, Gav said:

We spent 12 seasons in division 2 from 1980 - 1992 - I never thought for one minute we'd end up in the 1st Division until Jack came along in 87/88. We have spent 3 season in division 2 under Mowbray, I also don't think for one minute under these owners we'll end up in the premiership, but we don't ever give up.

That is the point. Bb.

Thanks for clearing that up. It I am reading that right you are saying it's the same in terms of no expectations of going up in either circumstance? Fair enough I get that. 

Outside of that I'd say the situations are very different because of the owners competence and intent. At least you knew back then that the club was competently run and the owners want the best for us. Now it's just a shambles on all fronts. 

27 minutes ago, Gav said:

As for division 3 and our superior budget, the same applies in division 2, we can' t complete with the front runners budgets, is that a valid excuse like it was for promotion from div 3?

 

That's exactly my point - it isn't an excuse! I don't think it's an excuse either way. It doesn't detract from our League 1 success not does it exonorate our pitiful attempts at promotion under TM. I've never used the terms can't compete because my word one of the things I have loved most about Rovers as a smaller club is we have competed. Hughes and Souness eras the big boys knew they were in for.a hell of a rough time with us. There's another post of mine elsewhere which I won't fully repeat where I highlight the fallacy of not being able to compete. At present that's news to a host of clubs including Boro and Reading. It's harder yes but far, far from impossible. 

 

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I still don't get this on finances, we have the second richest owners in the Championship behind the Coates Family/ Bet365. All clubs that have come down apart from Norwich have had to set players etc to keep losses down etc. Those that have spent cash have done so after player sales. Brentford also have a lower wage budget than ourselves, so how can you use those as an example.

If Venky's wanted to, they could easily fund  a 1 season all out assault to get promotion (knowing if it didn't work they could sell a few players to comply with FFP afterwards) and then pay the FFP fine when we are promoted as Bournemouth did. I believe this is what Venky's wanted to do when we were promoted, until TM convinced them to follow this slow build approach, which has a serious flaw being FFP issues without promotion in 3 seasons.

 

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10 minutes ago, phili said:

then pay the FFP fine when we are promoted

It sounds so simple when you express in that fashion....but in sport, it’s not “when” is it ? 
It’s “if”...& no matter how rich the owners, the ensuing points deduction could easily lead to another relegation.

The football world is fundamentally different now than it was in 1991/2 & COVID has brought the economics of the madhouse as practised in the Championship into sharper focus.

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39 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would say Barton would be a far bigger shock and people would be very unhappy. Burnley links aside, many were cautiously optimistic about Coyle. 

They could certainly surprise us though! 

Anybody who was " cautiously optimistic " about the Coyle appointment must have been seriously deluded. I couldn't bring myself to do it but backing Rovers to go down after that would have been " a licence to print money " !

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces
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Who was cautiously optimistic? A few “give ‘im a chance”-ers aside, it was a rare example of a united Rovers fanbase. The dive in ST sales that summer was the first inkling that it had gone down with the fanbase like a lead balloon.

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20 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Anybody who was " cautiously optimistic " about the Coyle appointment must have been seriously deluded. I couldn't bring myself to do it but backing Rovers to go down after that would have been " a licence to print money " !

I suppose people had no choice but to try and be optimistic. 

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3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I suppose people had no choice but to try and be optimistic. 

A bloke once told me - " You can try to fool other people if you like but never try to fool yourself ". Looking at Coyle's " achievements " after he left the Dingle Dome only pointed us in one direction.

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9 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

A bloke once told me - " You can try to fool other people if you like but never try to fool yourself ". Looking at Coyle's " achievements " after he left the Dingle Dome only pointed us in one direction.

Stinker of an appointment alright. 

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2 hours ago, rog of the rovers said:

My two-penneth is such

I think Mowbray has perhaps taken this team as far as he can, his poor body language in recent weeks has become slightly alarming, slumped in his seat (or in the stand) his post match press conferences are becoming a bit of a parody, whilst results on the park have been ''more of the same.''

That all said, I do think he should be given until the end of the season.

And why? Well for the reasons why Blackburn Rovers is a club still on the mend and rebuild after the awful leadership and decisions made in the 2010s. The fragility of the hierarchy at the club, the rebuild still needed in various departments (scouting, coaching etc) and the civil unrest that still fractures the fanbase.

Given til the end of the season Mowbray will have had more than a fair crack at the whip, three full seasons back in the Championship, with his own players at his disposal, a fully fledged four and a half season run in charge from February 2018 - May 2021 is a lifetime in football, and ultimately I do believe at that stage the time will be right to move our separate ways, with the integrity of TM and the club very much intact. TM will leave a club in a much better scenario than the one he inherited, with foundations in place for a new face and fresh ideas to build on this. 

The mood and the data is trending very much against Mowbray being the man to lead us to the Premier League.

His current record with Rovers in the Championship stands at

P 130 W 46 D 35 L 46 for a record of 176 points off 130 games or 1.35 league points per game.

Over a full season this averages out to 62 points (1.35 x 46) which during his full seasons at the helm would be good enough (at Championship level) for

18/19 - 14th (we finished 15th with 60 points)

19/20 - 13th (we finished 11th with 63 points)

 

In 20/21 we are on course for a small improvement, currently we're on a pace of 1.39 points a game, which would put us on 64 points after 46 games.

60, 63, 64 a pattern indeed.

 

With Mowbray we're going to finish midtable, the data and the mood dictates that. Would a new manager be able to inspire the players to a playoff push over the final 23 games? Maybe, but you're asking a new manager to perform wonders straight away, and for what benefit?

 

The candidates? Paul Cook? Chris Coleman? Tony Pullis? Joey Barton? Damien Johnson?

 

Give Mowbray til the summer, shake his hand, thank him for his efforts. His role as manager during the 18/19 League One campaign will cement his Rovers legacy for a generation to come, plus he does seem a genuinely nice guy, which has been missing from Rovers for some time.

   

 

End of the season is too late. A rebuild of the squad to replace the several players who should be shown the door has to start now. June or whenever clueless Venkys might get round to appointing a replacement is too late. 

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4 hours ago, Gav said:

 

Fake?

Howard Kendall was here for 2 seasons Asia.

We got promoted from division 3 in 1975 and then duly got relegated again.

We got promoted from division 3 in 79/80 and remained in division 2 for 12yrs until 1992 (Yes we went Wembley in 87 and lost in the playoffs) Gates down to 5000......It was a period devoid of much success as the record shows.

Mowbray got us promoted from division 3!

The original point 99? and TS made was asking what is the point if you feel Venkys have taken the club as far as it can go, I made the point that we've had baron periods in the past, I felt abject despair under Saxton, but the point is you support the club, its in the blood.

Saxton - one of the finest gentlemen we have ever had as manager. He just didn't go around telling all and sundry that he was.

I have to disclose that I know Bobby so that will influence my opinion.

However the despair that you felt under Saxton must be similar to what I feel under Mowbray.

Mowbray got us promoted after he was a part of a relegation from the Championship. He failed then and admitted as much himself. I know the rebuttal, no need to waste time on it.

Our low gates were also a result of what was happening in our society and football culture at that time when attendances across the country suffered. It was most certainly not just down to what was happening at Ewood.

So in summary 12 years devoid of much success against a decade, that will in due course become  11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years etc etc under the Venkys which I submit will be devoid of any success and with Mowbray still at the helm, still asleep.

Now that makes me despair.

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1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Who was cautiously optimistic? A few “give ‘im a chance”-ers aside, it was a rare example of a united Rovers fanbase. The dive in ST sales that summer was the first inkling that it had gone down with the fanbase like a lead balloon.

I may have been classed as an optimist with the comment "well at least he is a football manager".

Turned out i was wrong...

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For those interested in this sort of stuff Rovers average home attendances in the 70s and 80s  were never as low as 5,000.

Individual game attendances which are more dependant on the competition, opposition, hell even the weather may/were on occasion.

Don't fall for the myth, which I've seen promoted over the years, that League were on average as low as 5k

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/blar.htm

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52 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

For those interested in this sort of stuff Rovers average home attendances in the 70s and 80s  were never as low as 5,000.

Individual game attendances which are more dependant on the competition, opposition, hell even the weather may/were on occasion.

Don't fall for the myth, which I've seen promoted over the years, that League were on average as low as 5k

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/blar.htm

In the interests of balance and fair play, nobody said our average gates were as low as 5000, apologies if I wasn't clear, I certainly didn't mean that. We have had a number of poor gates over the years, but the average was never as low as 5000 I'm sure.

I do recall being one of the hardy bunch on the league cup 2nd leg match at Ewood against Wimbledon? Having been hammered in the first leg away with just over 2000 hardy souls hoping for a miracle, but those gates were few are far between. 

Edited by Gav
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8 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Anybody who was " cautiously optimistic " about the Coyle appointment must have been seriously deluded. I couldn't bring myself to do it but backing Rovers to go down after that would have been " a licence to print money " !

I agree...

but then Mowbray got us relegated and has no idea what to do with Gallagher.

Easy appointment from the same agent but equally bad in different measures.

Both not fit to be anywhere near our club.

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4 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

I agree...

but then Mowbray got us relegated and has no idea what to do with Gallagher.

Easy appointment from the same agent but equally bad in different measures.

Both not fit to be anywhere near our club.

I don’t think he’s the answer either, but he did incredibly well to get us within a shout of survival after the mess he inherited from Coyle. Let’s not re write history, eh?

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5 hours ago, Gav said:

In the interests of balance and fair play, nobody said our average gates were as low as 5000, apologies if I wasn't clear, I certainly didn't mean that. We have had a number of poor gates over the years, but the average was never as low as 5000 I'm sure.

I do recall being one of the hardy bunch on the league cup 2nd leg match at Ewood against Wimbledon? Having been hammered in the first leg away with just over 2000 hardy souls hoping for a miracle, but those gates were few are far between. 

I've just looked it up on my Jackmans--our lowest-ever average gate was 5000 in 1891-2!

Gates in the 70's/80's were poor but not down as far as 5000. Between 1970-71  and 1990-91 gates were often in the single thousands rather than over 10000. !5 times in fact. The lowest average in the modern era was in 1985-6 at 5826. Lowest crowd in that season was 3587.

Our lowest ever gate was 300! In 1899-00!

What sticks our like a sore thumb is the aftermath of the Cup Final in 1960. Average crowds in that season----27299.

Following season---down to 19344 and 15906 the season after. People don't take kindly to being treated as fools.

Thanks again Mike for a book I never tire of dipping into!

 

Edited by 47er
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6 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

For those interested in this sort of stuff Rovers average home attendances in the 70s and 80s  were never as low as 5,000.

Individual game attendances which are more dependant on the competition, opposition, hell even the weather may/were on occasion.

Don't fall for the myth, which I've seen promoted over the years, that League were on average as low as 5k

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/blar.htm

What that shows is a strong correlation between final position and average gate: e.g. from 9,600 to 5,800 1985 vs 1986. It was ever thus prior to Jack.

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9 hours ago, 47er said:

The lowest average in the modern era was in 1985-6 at 5826. Lowest crowd in that season was 3587.

That was at the end of Bob Saxtons time I seem to recall?

Saxton was always on a hiding to nothing because Kendall proved to be one of English footballs greatest managers in my opinion, big shoes to fill. Howards only mistake was loaning Keeley to Everton who duly got sent off in his first game, the MERSEYSIDE DERBY, where he upended Kenny clean through on goal, he was immediately sent back to Ewood.

But we digress. 

 

Edited by Gav
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34 minutes ago, Gav said:

That was at the end of Bob Saxtons time I seem to recall?

Saxton was always on a hiding to nothing because Kendall proved to be one of English footballs greatest managers in my opinion, big shoes to fill. Howards only mistake was loaning Keeley to Everton who duly got sent off in his first game, the MERSEYSIDE DERBY, where he upended Kenny clean through on goal, he was immediately sent back to Ewood.

But we digress. 

 

Everton anti-hero Glenn Keeley: I never even wanted to play in THAT match - Liverpool Echo

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3 hours ago, Gav said:

Howards only mistake was loaning Keeley to Everton who duly got sent off in his first game, the MERSEYSIDE DERBY, where he upended Kenny clean through on goal, he was immediately sent back to Ewood.

But we digress. 

 

At least Howard's mistake was to Everton's cost and not the Rovers Gav. He was the one who took Killer on loan, not the one who loaned him out.

Edited by oldjamfan1
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11 hours ago, 47er said:

I've just looked it up on my Jackmans--our lowest-ever average gate was 5000 in 1891-2!

Gates in the 70's/80's were poor but not down as far as 5000. Between 1970-71  and 1990-91 gates were often in the single thousands rather than over 10000. !5 times in fact. The lowest average in the modern era was in 1985-6 at 5826. Lowest crowd in that season was 3587.

Our lowest ever gate was 300! In 1899-00!

What sticks our like a sore thumb is the aftermath of the Cup Final in 1960. Average crowds in that season----27299.

Following season---down to 19344 and 15906 the season after. People don't take kindly to being treated as fools.

Thanks again Mike for a book I never tire of dipping into!

 

Sorry if this is a bit off thread but has anyone knowledge of the latest publication of Mick Jackman's book. I am hoping to purchase a copy but most seem to have been published 2009.

Thanks

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